Feb. 28, 2024

#10 Running for Joy — Creativity, Movement, and Aging Well

#10 Running for Joy — Creativity, Movement, and Aging Well

**Want to hear about an athlete who combines running with artistic expression? ** This week on Ageless Athlete, we meet Frank Chan, a 51-year-old engineer who started running marathons just a few years ago, at the age of 45! Despite his late start, Frank has already conquered over 13 marathons and is dangerously close to the 3 hour mark! But Frank's approach to training is refreshingly unconventional. Tune in to discover: The benefits of starting running later in life and th...

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Season 1

**Want to hear about an athlete who combines running with artistic expression? **

This week on Ageless Athlete, we meet Frank Chan, a 51-year-old engineer who started running marathons just a few years ago, at the age of 45!  Despite his late start, Frank has already conquered over 13 marathons and is dangerously close to the 3 hour mark! 

But Frank's approach to training is refreshingly unconventional.  Tune in to discover:

  • The benefits of starting running later in life and the joys of being a beginner
  • Progress in the 5th decade of life
  • Why under-training might actually be beneficial (and how to do it safely!).
  • How to stay fueled efficiently (hint: don't skip those snacks!).
  • And the coolest part: how Frank creates incredible "Run Art" using his running routes! ️

**Join us as we delve into Frank's unique journey and explore the intersection of intellectual rigor, planning, and spontaneity in his pursuit of performance and beauty**

References:

Frank's website (with great pictures and beautiful run art)
Frank's Instagram 

#AgelessAthlete #RunArt #FrankChan #NeverTooLate #RunningInspiration



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WEBVTT

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Hi friends.

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Welcome back to the ageless athlete podcast, where we tap into stories and secrets of high-performing outdoor athletes.

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This is Kush.

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your host from my corner in San Francisco.

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Sometimes you get lucky and get to speak to it.

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Distinctively unique athlete.

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Who breaks the ground on high-performance combined with radical self-expression.

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Today we have Frank Chan.

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A 51 year old.

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Marathon runner from Northern California who manages to combine high performance running.

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With run art.

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This involves outlining complex designs.

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On a map by running specific routes.

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And creating intricate, still art.

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With the ships that have been outlined.

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Why logging hundreds of miles across the city.

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Frank has managed to draw some gorgeous works of art, including tributes to rockstars.

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To his mom.

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As well as animals.

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Food groups.

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And even the statue of Liberty.

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How to describe orally.

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Of course.

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We will provide Frank's Instagram, et cetera for you to see the designs themselves, but imagine large city blocks and an entire neighborhoods.

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Carved into intricate shapes and designs.

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That is run art.

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Frank is no slouch when it comes to the actual running either.

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As an MIT engineer, Dern bicycling advocate.

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Frank started running only a few years ago, late at the age of 45.

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But he has already run over 13 marathons.

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He has been consistently improving with each run and is closing in on the fabled three.

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Three hour mark.

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In the sport where the elites carefully plan each day and each meal.

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He has a refreshingly wholesome approach to training.

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Why he's still intensely focused on performance.

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He manages to combine with life outside of running.

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Such as with supporting local causes.

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And also volunteering, participating and mentoring with werunsf and run365sf.

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amongst others.

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Thank you Diana for introing me to Frank and for expanding my perspective on what it means to be an elite outdoor athlete.

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Excited to dive into Frank's unique pursuit.

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And learn how intellectual rigors.

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Planning and spontaneity converge and his pursuit of run art.

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Know anybody else who may inspire you and others on the show?

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Send me a note at kush@agelessathlete.co.

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Or DM.

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On social media.

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Without further ado.

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Here.

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We go.

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Hey, Frank.

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How are you doing?

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Good to see you in person.

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please tell us a little bit about, where you are right now.

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How old are you and, what did you have for breakfast?

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Oh wow.

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Good question.

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my name is Frank Chan.

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I live here in San Francisco in the Russian Hill neighborhood, just a little bit west of Chinatown.

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I'm 51.

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I'm sure we'll talk about it more, but, I used to bicycle a lot and now a lot of time running.

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did I eat for breakfast this morning?

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I had some oatmeal, just some dried fruit.

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Pretty boring, some protein powder.

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I think you are asking me about nutrition.

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so I usually have that every day.

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oh.

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And I've, one, one thing I do with my oatmeal, I do sprinkle in a little bit of cayenne powder just to spice it up.

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It's like coffee, but it just gives a little kick.

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That sounds like a delicious and a nutritious, breakfast and a cayenne pepper.

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that's, we'll have to come back to that one.

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Yes.

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That's, that's great actually, I had something similar.

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I usually have a steel cut oats thing a few a week, and I did something different.

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I, I did that and I, but I baked that into a muffin.

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I added some cacao powder and some banana.

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you tired, get tired of eating the same, mush every day.

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So I made that into a baked treat.

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Yeah.

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I'm usually not one to mix these, the sweet and savory, but in that case, the spice usually associated with savory, works well with the sweets.

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we happen to live in a city full of, Geeky gourmet chefs and, it's not unusual to see flavors being experimented with.

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And yes, the, the spicy, I like those, those Mexican hot chocolate kind of things myself.

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yes.

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No, definitely.

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very tasty.

00:06:03.174 --> 00:06:04.353
We jump right into it.

00:06:04.468 --> 00:06:07.079
please tell us a little bit about, your running

00:06:07.394 --> 00:06:07.843
sure.

00:06:08.288 --> 00:06:14.609
like I said, I, at least growing up, I had more of a background in, let's say bicycling, just as a commuter.

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I've only raced like one bicycle race in my life, and it was less than an hour, so it was clearly wasn't that impressive an effort.

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I used to work, at the San Francisco Bicycle Coalition, a nonprofit promoting the bicycle for everyday transportation.

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And Susan, who was her name, my colleague at the time was running the San Francisco Marathon in 2017.

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And I was just inspired by her whole journey of building up the mileage, eventually tapering, getting ready for the race and just trying to, following her on that day of, I didn't actually see her in person, but I just followed online.

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And then I heard about how she did afterwards.

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And so inspired by that, I just ran into work, the week after and it was two miles.

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And if you're not used to running two miles is.

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You might as well have run across the country.

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I felt horrible.

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I immediately got to work, was panting, probably sweating a little bit too much, but something with me resonated.

00:07:05.978 --> 00:07:12.038
and I think it's that one of the things about running, I think that's been fascinating is it's all been found money.

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I didn't run cross country or track in high school or college.

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And so someone once said that people have a lifetime amount of miles in them.

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And so one of the things that's been nice for me is that it's all new.

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Even if I certainly don't recover as well as, let's say I was back in my twenties or thirties, like most runners, all those early days are prs come easy and I'm trying to have to figure it out now that I've been running a little bit longer how to get better.

00:07:38.413 --> 00:07:42.264
And it gets harder of course, as we're not as, young as we used to be.

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But, I like that it's a new chapter, relatively late in life.

00:07:46.054 --> 00:07:58.129
Interesting thing you said about, a certain number of life miles and, many people who are gifted runners, they might have started at a very young age, and, and you started later in life.

00:07:58.609 --> 00:08:08.968
Do you think that starting later gives you any other kind of advantage be besides the fact that, you haven't exhausted your, lifetime miles yet?

00:08:09.468 --> 00:08:09.829
Yeah.

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I, there's a few, I think, I obviously wonder, geez, if I'm doing this now, how fast could I have run back in my twenties or thirties?

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Certainly, I do wonder about that.

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But there, there's some advantages to now.

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I think there's a patience that you have, especially for long distance running where.

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You're a little bit better about not starting out too hard, just because you can't start out too hard.

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I just don't have a five minute mile in me ever, and I'm at peace with that.

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maybe I'll try, to get that a little bit faster.

00:08:40.528 --> 00:08:45.178
and I think the, specifically with running it really rewards a consistency.

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Like no individual workout is gonna transform your body.

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So it's about how can you set yourself up to go after, get out there day after day, week after week, month after month.

00:08:57.428 --> 00:09:04.519
And so I think perspective, something you associate with being older, not necessarily everyone, but, that, that's an advantage too.

00:09:05.083 --> 00:09:11.903
And maybe it's also being in a position in life where, I've been lucky to be living in San Francisco for a while.

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I know the paths.

00:09:13.303 --> 00:09:18.196
Let's say And yeah, that you can later on in life pick up a new hobby and really embrace it.

00:09:18.828 --> 00:09:22.853
I think that is certainly, an aspect that is inspiring.

00:09:23.359 --> 00:09:23.478
I.

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About what you're doing because many of us, we chance upon something like this maybe could be picking up a musical instrument.

00:09:31.975 --> 00:09:43.176
talking of which I started playing the Congress a couple of years ago and I realized that, I have this beginner's enthusiasm about it that maybe if I started much younger, I probably would not have appreciated.

00:09:43.676 --> 00:09:52.879
Frank, you are known to fuse art and running and we will get into that in a second.

00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.249
Really excited to hear you speak on that.

00:09:55.818 --> 00:10:07.349
But just on the subject of pure running itself, can you give us an idea of, what kind of running do you actually do and any running accomplishments that, you're particularly proud of?

00:10:07.849 --> 00:10:08.178
Sure.

00:10:08.209 --> 00:10:11.119
perhaps I'm unlike some of the other guests that we've had on here.

00:10:11.239 --> 00:10:12.829
I'm certainly not an elite runner.

00:10:12.859 --> 00:10:14.178
I think I'm doing like, okay.

00:10:14.183 --> 00:10:16.489
For my age, that's the way I like to say.

00:10:16.769 --> 00:10:18.834
perhaps like in local races, I.

00:10:19.079 --> 00:10:21.359
They grade you by age group, so they bucket you.

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And I'd like to say, I'd like to try to get on the age group, leaderboard of the podium.

00:10:26.219 --> 00:10:30.418
I don't think I'm gonna win many age groups, so I think I'm doing okay.

00:10:30.729 --> 00:10:36.788
in terms of accomplishments or where I generally find myself, I do a lot of local race road races.

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I haven't done as much trail just because of where we are.

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I just run where I happen to be, which is in a metropolis.

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So I tend to spend a lot of time on the road.

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I have heard that most people or not, I shouldn't say most people, but there are people who eventually when they're, have had their time on the road, they switched to the trail and there's a different mentality and a different ethos to trail.

00:10:59.423 --> 00:11:00.653
And I totally appreciate that.

00:11:00.894 --> 00:11:06.504
I don't do it as much, but I do get over to, let's say the Marin Headlands or even in Mount Sutro in the middle of San Francisco.

00:11:06.504 --> 00:11:07.553
I do enjoy that too.

00:11:08.053 --> 00:11:13.663
I've done, let's say, so after being inspired to run, by my former coworker.

00:11:14.234 --> 00:11:17.053
The first thing I signed up was, let's say the Kaiser half marathon.

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That was in 2018 and I did two halves.

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And then for some reason, this is where I did not have that discipline.

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I just decided, oh yeah, I'm ready for the full marathon.

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just after two halves.

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And that was the first marathon I ran, the San Francisco, 2018 version.

00:11:33.813 --> 00:11:46.543
I've since done 13, I think marathons, doing reasonably, I think, I don't think anything super spectacular, but it's been a goal to chip in to the low three hour range.

00:11:47.114 --> 00:11:53.974
so I think now I'm quite content to just try to chip away a minute, at a minute, at a time.

00:11:54.524 --> 00:12:02.653
not the days of massive gains may be behind me, but I think I continue to, find little optimizations.

00:12:03.153 --> 00:12:03.634
Excellent.

00:12:03.634 --> 00:12:04.114
Yeah.

00:12:04.563 --> 00:12:09.334
Chipping away at, at, one's, performance one day at a time.

00:12:09.384 --> 00:12:14.724
there's nothing like, like success, breed success and progress is wording.

00:12:15.224 --> 00:12:21.084
Now getting into the subject that I'm really excited to talk about, which is, which is run art.

00:12:21.584 --> 00:12:24.104
I didn't know something like this existed.

00:12:24.524 --> 00:12:29.053
And, when our common friend, Diana first told me about you and I had to go.

00:12:29.553 --> 00:12:32.614
Back and look at, your website and your Strava profile.

00:12:32.614 --> 00:12:35.124
I was, yeah, I was just floored.

00:12:35.183 --> 00:12:38.234
I had not seen, that kind of stuff on the streets for San Francisco.

00:12:38.234 --> 00:12:42.214
So could you describe, what is run art?

00:12:42.714 --> 00:12:43.134
Sure.

00:12:43.704 --> 00:12:46.043
so I'm certainly not the only person doing this.

00:12:46.048 --> 00:13:01.433
In fact, my friend Lenny Mon, he's certainly a local legend in this, but you'll find a few of these running geeks in every city or every country, as if running or cycling, you can, I guess you can bike the same paths too, as if running or cycling weren't niche enough.

00:13:01.464 --> 00:13:17.344
There is this sub niche or sub genre of running, we call run art, and it basically involves tracing a certain pattern through the streets or paths or parks or wherever, staircases even where, wherever you can cut through, a single line.

00:13:17.344 --> 00:13:23.923
So it's like drawing a line, but you can't pick up your pen and you just try to make as.

00:13:24.448 --> 00:13:27.389
Artistic or as long as a path as you can.

00:13:27.839 --> 00:13:31.168
And this is what usually done with a GPS device.

00:13:31.168 --> 00:13:35.188
So you either you have a watch or you, I guess you could even record it on your phone also.

00:13:35.469 --> 00:13:36.999
the watches seem to be a little bit better.

00:13:37.538 --> 00:13:55.558
and for the most part, this is usually done in a day though a few of us nerds have done sort of multi-day efforts where effectively you draw, let's say half your drawing, you pause, go home, take a shower, eat something, the next day hopefully charge the watch to you.

00:13:56.058 --> 00:14:00.668
Next day you go back out there to where you left off and resume and you pick up.

00:14:00.668 --> 00:14:03.158
And that's how you do like a multi-day effort.

00:14:03.219 --> 00:14:04.839
gotta make sure you don't lose it on your watch.

00:14:04.894 --> 00:14:13.594
some real nerds like me wear multiple watches just to make sure you record, this effort that you've spent hours designing, much less running.

00:14:14.144 --> 00:14:18.104
so I, they don't have to be super long efforts.

00:14:18.234 --> 00:14:27.204
in fact, we can get into how our mutual friend, we coax Diana into doing a five mile run art for our local weekly run group.

00:14:27.614 --> 00:14:31.073
but efforts can be 20, 30 to 40 miles.

00:14:31.308 --> 00:14:40.649
And I'd say the longer or the bigger your run art is, the more you eliminate the jaggies from the And the more you're your design is resistant to error.

00:14:40.649 --> 00:14:47.249
So let's say if you've missed a block, ah, when you're won over, it doesn't matter if your drawing is that big.

00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:55.739
If it covers the entire, let's say city of San Francisco, no one's gonna notice if you went down 23rd instead of 25th or something like that.

00:14:56.239 --> 00:14:56.749
Got it.

00:14:56.808 --> 00:14:57.589
No, that makes sense.

00:14:57.589 --> 00:14:58.989
Over, yeah.

00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:00.389
the longer, A piece of art.

00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:07.173
the longer run is, or the longer anything really is, the more you can, the law of averages takes.

00:15:07.566 --> 00:15:09.556
and your design can be more intricate.

00:15:09.615 --> 00:15:23.245
one of the challenges is, you can't run through a building but you'd like to, anytime you have a diagonal line going through a street grid, you're pretty much going up, down, up and over, up left up, left, let's say in a staircase pattern.

00:15:23.635 --> 00:15:28.446
But the more you zoom out, the more that approaches a diagonal line.

00:15:28.946 --> 00:15:29.485
makes sense.

00:15:29.485 --> 00:15:30.716
Yeah, no, it absolutely makes sense.

00:15:30.765 --> 00:15:31.755
couple of dumb questions

00:15:32.221 --> 00:15:32.701
sure, sure.

00:15:32.836 --> 00:15:33.586
since I'm new to this.

00:15:34.066 --> 00:15:40.635
are you drawing something on paper first and that somehow gets transferred onto real map?

00:15:40.635 --> 00:15:42.346
Like how does this evolve?

00:15:42.885 --> 00:15:47.186
Yeah, I would definitely not recommend doing this on the fly or designing this on the fly.

00:15:47.515 --> 00:15:52.946
In almost all cases, you'd want to plan out how you'd want your run art to look.

00:15:53.005 --> 00:15:59.975
So I'd say my general process is, first you want a sense of like how long or how big you want this to be.

00:16:00.245 --> 00:16:13.816
So let's just say for you and me, on the eastern side of San Francisco, if we were to constrain it to, let's say the northeast or downtown quadrant, instead of San Francisco being seven by seven, it'd be like, let's say three by three miles.

00:16:13.821 --> 00:16:20.015
So that'll give you a sense of, if you were to draw a big circle, okay, that'd be about like, six or seven miles, who knows?

00:16:20.076 --> 00:16:22.706
Within the down, within the downtown portion.

00:16:23.046 --> 00:16:29.625
so the first thing you wanna get is a sense of scale, and you have a certain design that you have in mind.

00:16:29.836 --> 00:16:32.355
And I think the first thing is to take that design.

00:16:32.855 --> 00:16:38.615
Which may have different shadings or colors and simplify it down to black and white line art, right?

00:16:38.676 --> 00:16:39.635
Just the lines.

00:16:40.206 --> 00:16:49.416
And that may mean eliminating some details that come out better when you're actually drawing, like with the pen and pa, pen or color, and simplifying it.

00:16:49.916 --> 00:16:55.666
And then you at least visually or actually overlay it onto a map and see where logistically it could go.

00:16:55.666 --> 00:17:00.321
So obviously you don't want, you can't run in the ocean, or maybe you can and you switch over to swimming.

00:17:00.541 --> 00:17:15.385
but generally you wanna avoid water bodies of water freeways where there's no, unless there's an underpass or overpass, there's some areas of the Presidio where it's let's say, or Golden Gate Park where it may be unintuitive to get through where or may be fenced off.

00:17:15.855 --> 00:17:20.250
I have had to climb a fence or two just to make sure the line goes through in some very rare cases.

00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:21.865
But you generally wanna make it.

00:17:21.925 --> 00:17:23.605
Where is the least runable?

00:17:24.105 --> 00:17:27.546
So I'd say the first things to think about are the scaling and the positioning.

00:17:28.115 --> 00:17:39.455
and then if you really want, one of the more advanced things is think about is like, are there key elements of your design, let's say the eyes where you really wanna make sure those are runnable and drawable?

00:17:39.955 --> 00:17:58.765
So I've had sometimes eyes of, let's say aerial or Little Mermaid where I'm effectively just like you went on a piece of paper, if you're going around in circles to circle the eye where you're running around in circles on the street and you wanna make sure it's a large enough area where a key element, your design can be executed.

00:17:58.796 --> 00:18:07.985
so sometimes I've positioned something where I wanna freehand it in the middle of a park just so I can run all over the lawn and not be constrained by anything else.

00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:09.125
But that's more of a niche thing.

00:18:09.125 --> 00:18:15.010
I'd say the biggest things first are just to get the scale and the position right, where it's actually doable.

00:18:15.510 --> 00:18:16.020
Makes sense.

00:18:16.020 --> 00:18:33.750
And I think maybe people listening if they wanted to get started, I think you've given people an idea of how they start with the drawing on, let's say a piece of paper and then they tried to, overlay that into, onto a map and then.

00:18:34.250 --> 00:18:40.121
When it comes to executing it, so now you have it, and then do you take that map that you've drawn?

00:18:40.121 --> 00:18:42.441
Do you somehow import that into Strava?

00:18:42.711 --> 00:18:48.740
And then as you're running, are you like looking at your watch at the map and having it spit out directions?

00:18:49.221 --> 00:18:49.461
Yep.

00:18:49.510 --> 00:18:52.000
a bunch of different ways to cut this and they're all correct.

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.530
Whatever works best for the person.

00:18:53.990 --> 00:19:00.550
I generally do, so one of the things I should have backed up, you should have a general idea of how long it's gonna be.

00:19:00.881 --> 00:19:02.471
Otherwise you'll be out there forever.

00:19:02.591 --> 00:19:06.894
And with Straw or MapMyRun or Garmin or a lot of those.

00:19:07.194 --> 00:19:10.884
You can begin to sketch out the root and see how long it takes.

00:19:10.884 --> 00:19:13.305
So that's, I'd at least do that.

00:19:13.355 --> 00:19:17.285
I've done run art where I've just had the tracing and I don't actually know how long it is.

00:19:17.285 --> 00:19:24.069
And that's, it's fine if you're, used to winging it, but I wouldn't recommend it if, if you were starting from scratch.

00:19:24.579 --> 00:19:30.819
So with any of the online, tools for drawing the route, yes, you can either sync it to your device.

00:19:30.849 --> 00:19:37.059
I happen to print it out too'cause I just find it easier or a little bit more convenient to just look at a piece of paper.

00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:39.660
but you can certainly have your on your watch.

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:50.250
I have found that, and this won't matter until, unless people are really doing something intricate, but like some devices can have a limit on how many points are in your route.

00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:56.430
So I, I have an old garment, unfortunately it limits me to 50 Wayfair way points.

00:19:56.930 --> 00:19:58.130
And a lot of these run art.

00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.289
have more than 50 points in them.

00:20:00.589 --> 00:20:05.620
So it says limit, exceeded, navigate on your own from here.

00:20:05.670 --> 00:20:06.900
it's something to test out.

00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:11.069
And so I think anyone interested in doing this should probably start with something simple first.

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.569
Something achievable in an hour or two, let's say, and then proceed from there.

00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:17.269
But, it, whatever works for you.

00:20:17.299 --> 00:20:19.809
However you would navigate any route.

00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:21.880
there is a run Go app.

00:20:22.210 --> 00:20:34.599
I don't, there's probably other similar ones, but, it'll bark the directions in headphones or if you're listening on a phone, so you can turn, turn left or turn right, but even then, something like that, it tends to tell you a little too late.

00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:45.299
So I'll be halfway through an intersection, maybe to the other side, and it says, turn so you, so it, I think if you have in your own sense of where the design is going, I.

00:20:45.795 --> 00:20:49.434
That's always best, and not blindly rely on a device.

00:20:49.704 --> 00:20:54.799
and I to think sometimes one of the things I like to do is pretend I'm like this bird up in the air.

00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.765
And you should always have a sense of where you are in the art and what direction.

00:20:59.789 --> 00:21:01.150
I know that's, directions.

00:21:01.154 --> 00:21:04.309
It's not, not everyone has the same proficiency with that.

00:21:04.309 --> 00:21:05.120
I totally get it.

00:21:05.120 --> 00:21:15.849
But you should always, if you were drawing, let's say something, knowing which way's north, and not you, I don't want anyone to be turned around to the point where they've lost where their pen is, so to speak.

00:21:16.180 --> 00:21:16.960
Sure.

00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:37.259
There is one other, part of the run you run our journey that I wanted to quickly, touch on, which is I think you drew something which you're particularly known for or perhaps, take pride in, which is something related to your mother.

00:21:37.664 --> 00:21:38.174
Oh yes.

00:21:38.325 --> 00:21:38.565
Okay.

00:21:39.120 --> 00:22:38.240
What is that all about?

00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:39.160
Yeah.

00:22:39.210 --> 00:22:46.940
as we mentioned, I don't have much of a running history, but I was going through my old photographs with my mom, or just my childhood.

00:22:47.509 --> 00:22:54.150
And there's this photo of my mom helping me or teaching me how to tie my shoes when I was, let's say, three or four.

00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:56.870
And so this is back in the seventies or eighties.

00:22:57.019 --> 00:22:57.560
I forgot what.

00:22:57.590 --> 00:22:58.130
Yeah, definitely.

00:22:58.130 --> 00:22:59.450
I should say definitely in the seventies.

00:22:59.970 --> 00:23:01.259
so she's tying my shoes.

00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:07.700
And so for Mother's Day, a few years ago, and this was over three days, so this was one of these, multi-day sagas.

00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:12.009
I took that old photograph, simplified it down to line art.

00:23:12.009 --> 00:23:12.039
I.

00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:21.810
In other words, the, from a old color photograph, converted it to line art, eliminated some details, and it turned out to be the 60 or 70 mile run.

00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:23.410
it did over three days.

00:23:23.830 --> 00:23:27.730
it was just a tribute to her that she taught me how to tie my shoes.

00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.130
I don't know if she appreciated it that much.

00:23:30.130 --> 00:23:36.265
She was all, she was ah, that's nice and typical Asian, tiger, Asian mom just was like, whatever.

00:23:36.535 --> 00:23:40.930
but I think she at least recognized that yes, the drawing looked something like the photo.

00:23:40.930 --> 00:23:44.690
Maybe that's as much of beg begrudging acknowledgement as I got.

00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:52.660
I will relate to that bit about Asian mothers, which is, I think, that old, adage that it's all about the thought.

00:23:53.549 --> 00:24:07.490
it doesn't matter what I give my mom for Mother's Day or another anniversary, or I think she's, honestly, yeah, she wouldn't care as long as I just remembered and, appreciated her of what I did.

00:24:07.490 --> 00:24:12.590
But I think your gift certainly takes the cake on uniqueness.

00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:13.380
yeah.

00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:14.509
No, thank you.

00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:15.500
I'd like to think so.

00:24:15.549 --> 00:24:20.509
and Frank, before we close out this chat from Runner, where can I, you have a really, lovely website.

00:24:20.509 --> 00:24:23.600
Is that the best place to, to, discover your runner?

00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.980
a couple of different, I'll give you a couple different handles.

00:24:27.009 --> 00:24:38.070
Archy, CHAN, just my last name, con, concatenated with, anarchy, archy.com has either some photographs and some of the, sort of the highlights of running.

00:24:38.470 --> 00:24:42.965
they can either go to I think on Archy also on most social media profiles.

00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:46.505
So let's say like Instagram, it's there mixed in with other personal stuff.

00:24:46.505 --> 00:24:48.115
But, yeah, I'd say either of those two.

00:24:48.615 --> 00:24:49.125
Fantastic.

00:24:49.125 --> 00:24:52.515
We'll have to put those links into our show notes.

00:24:53.055 --> 00:25:05.130
taking a step back, when I think of running in San Francisco and I tell people that San Francisco is a world class running destination, usually I think about, running through.

00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:12.230
The parks running through the hills, running by the water, maybe crossing the bridge.

00:25:12.830 --> 00:25:17.539
It had not struck me until then to recommend running through the streets of San Francisco.

00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:17.980
Yep,

00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:30.930
So if somebody was to visit San Francisco and was to look, was to was to inquire of let's say a more, indie perspective on best running streets or running areas, where would you tell them to go?

00:25:31.305 --> 00:25:34.035
No, it's, I think that was a, that's a fair opinion.

00:25:34.285 --> 00:25:34.315
I.

00:25:34.815 --> 00:25:35.685
We can get into it more.

00:25:35.685 --> 00:25:43.245
But during the pandemic, one of my little pandemic projects was to, with all races being canceled, was to run every single street in San Francisco.

00:25:43.605 --> 00:25:46.065
So that's what I did over, let's say like 2020.

00:25:46.545 --> 00:25:48.820
no, the one of the takeaway, it was a great experience.

00:25:48.820 --> 00:25:50.104
I certainly saw a lot.

00:25:50.163 --> 00:25:53.824
The bulk of it was done over, let's say three months, the summer.

00:25:54.344 --> 00:25:58.754
I think where people end up running it, it is natural that it is the best.

00:25:58.754 --> 00:26:00.314
These are the best places to run.

00:26:00.673 --> 00:26:04.423
that said, I think venturing off the paths has a couple of benefits.

00:26:04.764 --> 00:26:08.484
where people tends to run is flatter, and I get it.

00:26:08.724 --> 00:26:16.844
it, it takes more work to go up hills and there are a lot of them in San Francisco, but I do think there's a certain reward to going up those hills.

00:26:16.844 --> 00:26:19.274
You definitely, it definitely benefits your training.

00:26:19.724 --> 00:26:24.324
one of the indie things I like to try to point out is you get to know.

00:26:24.774 --> 00:26:27.653
Every neighborhood much better when you run them.

00:26:28.104 --> 00:26:38.923
So a lot of the living in the Northeast, I would say I ran the southern and the western parts of San Francisco less than normal, so it was a good excuse to go out to them.

00:26:39.524 --> 00:26:44.584
I think every neighborhood, for the most part has, its like some commercial activity.

00:26:44.584 --> 00:26:51.384
So it was nice to go out to, let's say the Excelsior and learn about the little commercial stretches

00:26:51.574 --> 00:26:51.994
Mm-Hmm.

00:26:52.594 --> 00:26:55.894
let's say portal, the Portola, the San Bruno Ave.

00:26:56.374 --> 00:26:58.024
So let's say just a little bit south of you.

00:26:58.394 --> 00:27:07.774
so it was a good excuse to get, to really get to know every single neighborhood, and find out, oh, there's a nice little store here, or I haven't tried this restaurant.

00:27:08.274 --> 00:27:19.754
I do a bit of cycling and there are these cycling clubs and, a lot of these cycling clubs often revolve around, finishing, a ride at a bakery and getting a,

00:27:20.254 --> 00:27:20.544
yeah,

00:27:20.798 --> 00:27:25.209
and wondering, since you mentioned commercial activity and you mentioned restaurants, do you ever do that?

00:27:25.209 --> 00:27:33.889
Which is which is go and discover, A big house or something similar and, use their products to actually even fuel, the rest of that run.

00:27:34.339 --> 00:27:36.673
oh, That's pretty much, my, my whole existence.

00:27:36.923 --> 00:27:46.439
if it's not a workout where I'm doing like intervals or repeats, I'm usually running to some restaurant, eating and then running back.

00:27:46.528 --> 00:27:54.554
Or in some cases, if it's cumbersome, or if it's suits the condition, I will take it out and carry it back as I'm running.

00:27:54.558 --> 00:27:57.859
I have been busted running with a pizza box down Market Street.

00:27:58.169 --> 00:27:58.769
no, I love it.

00:27:59.294 --> 00:28:01.994
I love trying out new restaurants that way.

00:28:02.304 --> 00:28:12.453
it was also something I had already been doing it, but especially motivated during the pandemic when all restaurants were just doing takeout, making sure I was still supporting them.

00:28:12.459 --> 00:28:18.689
So I'd run to a restaurant or takeout and either sit on the sidewalk and eat it or, or carry it back.

00:28:19.209 --> 00:28:19.659
Got it.

00:28:19.659 --> 00:28:20.078
Got it.

00:28:20.578 --> 00:28:30.054
Looking at your, at your life a little bit, I believe you have a degree from MITI just looked at your LinkedIn

00:28:30.624 --> 00:28:31.104
Oh yeah.

00:28:31.509 --> 00:28:45.279
and, you also worked at the BI Coalition, which, it's one of the organizations I support and I admire because, uh, because it helps our streets become more rideable for, for commuters and riders like me.

00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:52.200
Are you able to use your degree and what you do for work every day?

00:28:52.230 --> 00:28:54.810
Does that somehow help you balance out your running?

00:28:55.310 --> 00:28:56.210
I think it does.

00:28:56.490 --> 00:28:58.049
I'll mention a couple of different ways.

00:28:58.269 --> 00:29:02.480
usually in a race they tell you to not, overlook.

00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:05.019
They ask you to limit your cognitive load, right?

00:29:05.070 --> 00:30:04.329
oh, do the first half, just zone out and don't even think about it.

00:30:04.329 --> 00:30:06.610
Or, and I get why people say that.

00:30:06.610 --> 00:30:09.930
So that you could focus, on the later half or save yourself some energy.

00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:11.529
I don't mind that as much.

00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:16.200
in races, I will generally have the pay span and I'll be, and I, it's acknowledged.

00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:17.549
It gets really hard to do.

00:30:18.029 --> 00:30:24.329
Math at the end of a race, when you're at like mile 22 to 23 or 24, you're trying to think, am I gonna make a certain goal?

00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:25.120
it's hard.

00:30:25.120 --> 00:30:26.769
Your brain is just mashed potatoes.

00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:35.620
but I think there's some training, in that I like applying math and knowing, oh, I'm 20 seconds behind, or I'm 15 seconds ahead of a certain goal.

00:30:36.009 --> 00:30:38.650
one that's adjusted over the terrain of a race.

00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.960
So I think getting used to cognitive load in it.

00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:52.759
That's another thing about the run art too, where, it's nice to have the, say a 20 mile long run where you're just doing, going down the Golden Gate Park and coming back and you can zone out.

00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:55.519
I totally understand why people wanna zone out on the runs.

00:30:56.059 --> 00:31:04.089
in the run, you're, you can't zone out for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, whatever, however many hours you gotta be locked in.

00:31:04.589 --> 00:31:05.970
You gotta know where you're going.

00:31:06.470 --> 00:31:08.480
You zone out, you're screwing up the artwork.

00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:10.809
I like to think there's some training there.

00:31:11.059 --> 00:31:12.259
dunno how practical it is.

00:31:12.259 --> 00:31:13.279
It may be just I don't know.

00:31:13.779 --> 00:31:22.579
It might not be the most useful thing in the world, but it's useful for run art to be able to mentally keep attention on something where every block matters, right?

00:31:22.579 --> 00:31:26.650
You really can't be, let's say it takes you roughly a minute to run a block.

00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:28.809
You really can't zone out for more than a minute.

00:31:29.309 --> 00:31:32.485
Unless, there's this long stretch and that's a hard thing.

00:31:32.535 --> 00:31:36.285
I've certainly, in fact, maybe the, your audience will appreciate this.

00:31:36.289 --> 00:31:39.944
I haven't really made any major mistakes on like solo long run art.

00:31:40.305 --> 00:31:47.745
I've made some mistakes where I'm leading a group doing a short piece because I'll be talking to someone that's oh crap, we just missed a turn back there.

00:31:48.075 --> 00:31:51.785
And so it ha it happens or I paused and I forgot to resume.

00:31:51.789 --> 00:31:56.434
Whereas if I'm just solo doing this for hours, I'll tend to be much more locked in.

00:31:56.855 --> 00:32:01.745
But it's the yammering or someone asking me some questions that we're talking about what we're doing tomorrow.

00:32:01.745 --> 00:32:02.555
We did yesterday.

00:32:02.555 --> 00:32:03.755
That'll totally throw me off.

00:32:03.755 --> 00:32:06.865
And then the next thing we know, we've screwed up our magic run art.

00:32:07.357 --> 00:32:08.712
Frank, that is amazing.

00:32:09.187 --> 00:32:38.747
when I asked that question, I did not, anticipate this trajectory and, this combination of running and, And intellectual, exercise is something that I think many runners don't always get to experience because you're right with running, cycling in many endurance sports, I think there is a lot of emphasis on un zoning out, which is, just put one step in front of the other and yeah, you're running down, running up a hill and it's, whatever, five miles long.

00:32:38.807 --> 00:32:43.187
And you may listen to music and again, quote unquote tap out.

00:32:43.606 --> 00:32:49.906
But in this case, you have to be so aware of your surroundings and so aware of turns you have to make.

00:32:49.906 --> 00:32:55.126
And running around city blocks is, again so distinct than running down like one long endless rail.

00:32:55.307 --> 00:32:55.596
Yeah.

00:32:55.602 --> 00:32:55.682
Yep.

00:32:56.237 --> 00:32:57.257
And you have to say sharp.

00:32:57.257 --> 00:33:02.261
And the other thing I would, I was gonna say, and maybe this is also a question in, when you, let's say you are.

00:33:02.761 --> 00:33:10.231
Drawing a painting and something goes wrong in some situations, all of them, you get a chance to, to cover up that error and, draw on it.

00:33:10.231 --> 00:33:16.082
But I think when you're recording this thing in Strava, if you do make a big, a bad mistake, you can't actually erase that.

00:33:16.332 --> 00:33:20.471
no, you, you can't, or it's considered bad form to go and edit the stuff afterwards.

00:33:20.731 --> 00:33:20.942
no.

00:33:20.942 --> 00:33:31.882
So there's a few cases where when I've been a block off, I'll have to kind of replan and I've sat there and paused and then get out the pen that I have and then just retrace on my paper map.

00:33:31.882 --> 00:33:33.682
let me shift everything over, right?

00:33:33.682 --> 00:33:39.682
So that it's, let's say I was doing the stair step pattern or diagonal pattern, and I, let's say, blew it and missed a block.

00:33:39.731 --> 00:33:51.961
it's usually recoverable if you notice it soon enough and you have enough runway where okay, the curve will just go a little farther out, but you wanna do it still as smoothly as you can.

00:33:52.531 --> 00:33:55.082
yeah, no, you do have to, it, it happens.

00:33:55.241 --> 00:34:00.211
and largely if you still have enough streets to work with, you can make it good enough.

00:34:00.616 --> 00:34:00.677
there.

00:34:01.177 --> 00:34:18.637
There's also enough just randomness in GPS, especially if you're a design, and I've learned to avoid the financial districts because of all the towers, but you could run it perfectly and your line will be jagged as it goes down California street or Ker or Montgomery, just because that's the nature of things.

00:34:18.637 --> 00:34:28.297
So I would say as a tip, I wouldn't make any critical part, piece of run art go through the financial district or anything with a lot of towers if you can avoid it.

00:34:28.657 --> 00:34:33.247
But sometimes like where our run group meets on Wednesdays, that's where we start.

00:34:33.247 --> 00:34:34.597
that's part of the randomness of it.

00:34:35.097 --> 00:34:35.697
Absolutely.

00:34:35.697 --> 00:34:35.876
Yeah.

00:34:35.977 --> 00:34:39.001
I guess note, note to aspiring run Art Wannabes.

00:34:39.501 --> 00:34:42.612
Avoid, avoid, financial districts and tall towers.

00:34:42.791 --> 00:34:43.182
Yeah.

00:34:43.582 --> 00:34:54.662
Did you play any sports growing up or other athletics and just trying to gauge, whether you were naturally gifted, to evolve as a runner.

00:34:55.021 --> 00:34:57.362
I think I was like, reasonable.

00:34:57.362 --> 00:35:03.521
It was part of my, let's say, assimilation to the country where I would, I had one of those, rebound nets.

00:35:03.521 --> 00:35:09.567
So this is this is, it is the BA for baseball where you throw it against the, if there's a little strike zone and then it bounces back.

00:35:09.567 --> 00:35:14.967
And so I, I remember just endless hours in my backyard throwing it and catching the ball that way.

00:35:15.217 --> 00:35:18.237
in high school, my letter was in badminton.

00:35:18.266 --> 00:35:19.317
If it can be believed.

00:35:19.467 --> 00:35:22.527
I badminton is actually really competitive in the Bay Area.

00:35:22.856 --> 00:35:28.086
but I, it's not just a, law and picnic sport maybe elsewhere.

00:35:28.507 --> 00:35:33.547
and I would play with friends, play basketball on local courts, but I nothing serious.

00:35:33.596 --> 00:35:33.656
I.

00:35:34.257 --> 00:35:36.406
You mentioned the degrees.

00:35:36.406 --> 00:35:41.266
I think growing up, and as this goes back to our Asian parents, I was much more the athlete than the athlete.

00:35:41.326 --> 00:35:52.211
and I think that's why I'm pursuing this so aggressively now, maybe out of, a little bit of, I don't wanna say revenge, but just showing my mom, I could have been an athlete too, athlete if you just let me.

00:35:52.261 --> 00:35:58.442
I don't have any tales of her dropping me off at Little League or anything because I didn't play or I didn't do those typical things.

00:35:58.442 --> 00:36:03.596
So I, I think part of my zealotry for running now is making up for lost time.

00:36:04.146 --> 00:36:06.487
but it's a way to say, no, I really could have done it all.

00:36:06.487 --> 00:36:06.846
Mom.

00:36:07.336 --> 00:36:13.246
Yeah, it's, really fascinating how our upbringing and, experiences we have growing up.

00:36:13.507 --> 00:36:14.406
there are things that

00:36:14.906 --> 00:36:15.197
Yeah,

00:36:15.416 --> 00:36:20.126
perhaps don't surface back then, but then come back and bite us bite us full force.

00:36:20.626 --> 00:36:26.436
And I know this is part of my evolution as an outer athlete, which is, I was not particularly gifted

00:36:26.516 --> 00:36:26.967
I see.

00:36:27.192 --> 00:36:30.902
as a soccer player or as a cross country runner, in my class.

00:36:30.902 --> 00:36:38.672
And I think that could have something to do with my zealotry in pursuing these things today, which is maybe there's some hidden need to prove myself.

00:36:39.076 --> 00:36:39.467
Yeah.

00:36:40.016 --> 00:36:41.516
no, that was a, I'll just mention one tip.

00:36:41.521 --> 00:36:48.297
'cause you mentioned MIT last year was the first year I did the Boston Marathon after trying to qualify for some time.

00:36:48.797 --> 00:36:50.956
And it was also the first time I went back to campus.

00:36:51.456 --> 00:36:59.666
I think I had been by Boston for a business trip or two, but I never spent any serious time in Boston, Cambridge after all those years.

00:37:00.217 --> 00:37:04.541
and it all came together, in both cases, whether it be the marathon or MIT, it was.

00:37:05.041 --> 00:37:07.531
A place that like, oh God, it's so good to get in.

00:37:07.531 --> 00:37:14.121
And I am very lucky to be able to have done both, but you're representing your family or your friends from back home.

00:37:14.121 --> 00:37:16.696
They're following you on your journey of how you do there.

00:37:17.146 --> 00:37:23.146
You get there and when you tow the line on the corral, it's like everybody is supposed to be the best of the best.

00:37:23.146 --> 00:37:24.826
in the end, we're all just hobby joggers.

00:37:24.826 --> 00:37:25.906
None of us are Olympians.

00:37:25.911 --> 00:37:28.416
We're all just weekend warrior types, right?

00:37:28.416 --> 00:37:35.136
Not, we're all just doing this recreationally, but there is this buildup to like, oh, this is supposed to be a thing to aspire to.

00:37:35.136 --> 00:37:45.126
So I appreciated it for that and I think it, it, scratched this issue of this is a little bit of, I, maybe I would consider myself like lowkey competitive.

00:37:45.131 --> 00:37:54.846
I'm not like raging to outrun everybody, but I want to do well, or at least I wanna represent my friends and family from home and, not embarrass myself, let's say on the course.

00:37:55.371 --> 00:37:55.851
sure.

00:37:56.351 --> 00:38:07.651
Getting a little bit into Frank on the maintenance and the effort it takes to keep you performing as a, relatively high end runner.

00:38:08.251 --> 00:38:13.261
Running long runs, takes discipline, takes time.

00:38:13.471 --> 00:38:13.771
yep.

00:38:14.271 --> 00:38:23.881
What is your daily or maybe your weekly schedule, how do you, what time, how do you organize your life to be able to, produce

00:38:24.381 --> 00:38:25.886
No, it's definitely a challenge.

00:38:26.186 --> 00:38:35.406
I'd say, we have our friend in common, Diana, and with these run groups, it, I'd say it leans a little younger than us and.

00:38:35.906 --> 00:38:38.326
Those kids just rebound or they are amazing.

00:38:38.326 --> 00:38:40.547
They can go a hard effort and go hard again tomorrow.

00:38:40.547 --> 00:38:47.406
And I'm just completely wiped out after, I'd say I'm probably not doing anything, too different from many other athletes.

00:38:47.406 --> 00:38:48.756
I make sure I sleep well.

00:38:49.326 --> 00:38:54.961
I try to, I've had to do some strength training, dovetailing back to something we talked about, earlier in the call.

00:38:55.531 --> 00:39:09.172
I'm just patient about not overextending and just confident enough that I'd rather go into, let's say a race or even our, just a long run, a little undertrained than let's say, overtrained and broken.

00:39:09.651 --> 00:39:11.091
I've certainly been burned before.

00:39:11.591 --> 00:39:14.531
It's a challenge every marathon cycle to go in completely clean.

00:39:14.531 --> 00:39:20.221
I can't remember a time where by the time of the start line I didn't feel a little something, so I.

00:39:20.536 --> 00:39:22.636
It's my nature to push myself.

00:39:23.206 --> 00:39:33.456
And I just, over the years, been a little bit better about leaving a little on the table or maybe for that last repeat, I really don't need to hammer it and just fight to live another day and save it for race day.

00:39:33.986 --> 00:39:35.241
I do some strength training.

00:39:35.241 --> 00:39:40.241
I think it's taken some time to figure out, what in particular, challenges I have.

00:39:40.241 --> 00:39:43.576
And this is gonna be unique to everyone, but I'd say let's, I'll just give an example.

00:39:43.786 --> 00:39:47.567
I tend to feel more joint pain than, let's say muscle pain.

00:39:48.067 --> 00:39:56.386
so I wouldn't tell it, I don't necessarily have a massage gun because it's not like you take the massage gun and apply it right to your joints, right?

00:39:56.576 --> 00:39:58.047
it's something you more do for muscles.

00:39:58.047 --> 00:40:02.611
So I think there's a learning journey of figuring out what you need to do to work for yourself.

00:40:03.041 --> 00:40:04.501
I have, I.

00:40:04.931 --> 00:40:08.711
Previous to this year, I would say I generally run like, let's say five days a week.

00:40:08.771 --> 00:40:14.907
I had generally taken Monday and Friday off, so I have the Saturday, Sunday, a little bit of a pause for recovery.

00:40:15.477 --> 00:40:20.607
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, one of the things I'm trying this year is running six or seven days a week.

00:40:20.637 --> 00:40:27.727
It's going reasonably well so far, but I am feeling, let's say, a little bit more beat up than let's say last year.

00:40:27.727 --> 00:40:30.877
So it'll be interesting to see if this is sustainable.

00:40:31.377 --> 00:40:34.857
but even then, those days that I'm adding tend to be easy days.

00:40:34.857 --> 00:40:36.987
So I'm not like doing one more hard workout.

00:40:37.017 --> 00:40:41.187
I'm just doing one more leisurely run to a restaurant, getting food and coming back.

00:40:41.497 --> 00:40:47.572
I'm trying to add in incrementally, another, Cliche they say, is to try to change only one thing at a time.

00:40:47.663 --> 00:40:58.802
I'm probably changing more than one thing at a time, but at least I'm cognizant of that, of trying to not scramble up my routine too much and just challenge challenging myself, a little bit each cycle.

00:40:59.302 --> 00:40:59.962
Absolutely.

00:41:00.462 --> 00:41:11.102
One thing that I find fascinating is, over the last, couple of decades we've seen the, maybe the average of the median age of people who are, um,

00:41:11.988 --> 00:41:13.102
podiuming at,

00:41:13.102 --> 00:41:16.147
you know, some of the most famous endurance events.

00:41:16.417 --> 00:41:16.747
Yep,

00:41:17.247 --> 00:41:22.497
let's just talk about running for a second and running people who are winning these events, et cetera.

00:41:22.527 --> 00:41:24.572
The, I think the, those.

00:41:25.072 --> 00:41:28.132
Those ages have trended higher and higher.

00:41:28.163 --> 00:41:34.072
Now you people who are, again, breaking records who are a lot older than the ones who are doing it.

00:41:34.072 --> 00:41:38.042
So have you, do you use some of that intelligence?

00:41:38.047 --> 00:41:42.122
I'm wondering, do you get inspired by those performers?

00:41:42.182 --> 00:41:54.648
Is, are there any secrets or any ways those people have learned to train to keep excelling into the later years that maybe people were not doing two, three decades ago?

00:41:55.148 --> 00:41:57.698
Yeah, I'd like to, I'd like to think so.

00:41:57.808 --> 00:42:02.438
there was this curve, if you can imagine it, trying to peak for a certain race.

00:42:02.988 --> 00:42:07.068
you would, let's say, have a long recovery period after, like trying to peak for an absolute,

00:42:07.338 --> 00:42:17.448
seminal event versus what I think I'm doing, which is more just have a general fitness where maybe from my next race coming up, maybe I won't be absolutely peeking for it, but.

00:42:17.948 --> 00:42:21.998
Then I can sustainably run the week after or the month after.

00:42:22.428 --> 00:42:25.428
so to answer your question, I'm not exactly sure.

00:42:25.588 --> 00:42:31.259
I have noticed that same trend where it does seem like people are excelling later in their years.

00:42:31.648 --> 00:42:33.498
I'm very conscious of the aging curve.

00:42:33.498 --> 00:42:40.509
'cause when you, let's say you're looking at race results and you're flipping through the age groups, there's definitely this fall off, so forties to fifties and sixties.

00:42:40.523 --> 00:42:41.933
those times, they're different.

00:42:41.943 --> 00:42:49.183
I think one of the inspirations for me is to milk this last burst, let's say, of the next few years of okay, I can still do it.

00:42:49.183 --> 00:42:54.073
And then maybe I, maybe in five, 10 years I'll say, okay, maybe my best times are beyond me.

00:42:54.073 --> 00:43:00.958
But I think the thing that gives me hope and I'd say for people starting late later, there's also a little bit of urgency too.

00:43:01.198 --> 00:43:05.548
This provides me of let try to drill within the next few years and see what I can do.

00:43:06.048 --> 00:43:09.288
Before I pass the baton to the next generation, so to speak.

00:43:09.288 --> 00:43:10.398
So it does inspire me.

00:43:10.398 --> 00:43:18.703
It does motivate me to see, I still think my best times are ahead of me, but I know I won't be in, in 10 years, probably not.

00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:23.451
I love that, that, you are certainly your, best performances are ahead of you.

00:43:24.020 --> 00:43:31.510
And just staying on that segue for a second, your running and your creativity is an inspiration to others.

00:43:32.010 --> 00:43:34.320
Where do you, source your inspiration?

00:43:34.820 --> 00:43:41.510
it's, even though I was just watching, I think many of us watched the Olympic trials recently, and obviously that's a different level, right?

00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:44.630
These people are elite athletes and they've been running their whole lives.

00:43:44.910 --> 00:43:47.935
it's still nice to see, I do following along.

00:43:48.435 --> 00:43:50.105
Running as a spectator sport.

00:43:50.465 --> 00:43:52.175
I get inspiration from my friends too.

00:43:52.225 --> 00:43:56.695
Diana, our friend in common, she did her first marathon, at the end of last year.

00:43:56.785 --> 00:44:00.125
And, I and another friend, we actually went up to go cheer.

00:44:00.155 --> 00:44:02.346
So we took the train up to Sacramento.

00:44:02.765 --> 00:44:05.076
and so I, I'd say it goes both ways, right?

00:44:05.076 --> 00:44:12.400
Like people entering the sport, you don't need to only be inspired by, let's say, the people at the very top end of the sport.

00:44:12.740 --> 00:44:17.225
I get inspiration from seeing people do their first race.

00:44:17.285 --> 00:44:18.125
I train.

00:44:18.560 --> 00:44:20.710
With the running group, or run 365.

00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:22.840
It's the training group for the San Francisco Marathon.

00:44:22.900 --> 00:44:28.180
And so every season we're leading people through, let's say their first marathon or their return.

00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:34.576
this is the one, unlike those of us who run multiple races a year, this is the one event they do, and then they go into hibernation over the winter.

00:44:34.605 --> 00:44:35.415
I totally get it.

00:44:35.415 --> 00:44:36.225
It's totally fine.

00:44:36.655 --> 00:44:39.645
but it's inspiring to see what they can do.

00:44:39.645 --> 00:44:43.535
It's that same sort of hope that, oh God, this next race, this may be it for you.

00:44:43.585 --> 00:44:44.145
I do invo.

00:44:44.645 --> 00:44:49.005
I love that sort of, lottery scratcher mentality of this could be it, right?

00:44:49.005 --> 00:44:50.775
So you can fool me all the time, right?

00:44:51.055 --> 00:44:52.070
and guess what?

00:44:52.070 --> 00:44:53.150
It gets harder, right?

00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:56.420
Like the second race, you're probably pring the 20th.

00:44:56.990 --> 00:44:59.000
You're really gonna have to get it right.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:44:59.060
I.

00:44:59.610 --> 00:45:11.150
and so I appreciate that these different chapters of these different phases, everything from that, like as long as you show up sober and not hungover, you're probably gonna be our to the, everything needs to line up perfectly for you to pr.

00:45:11.300 --> 00:45:15.665
I, I love them just the same and they're both interesting to me.

00:45:16.165 --> 00:45:30.270
Absolutely no, I would agree that, obviously one gets inspired by the top end, but then I find inspiration from people or beginners too, because they bring this stoke and this, humility, like basically expectations are zero.

00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:37.480
So I go, I'll take some friends, rock climbing and every climb that they get on, it's just some, it's like a new frontier for them.

00:45:37.810 --> 00:45:48.810
And that gets me excited because I go out and I'm like, I did so many routes today or this year and I'm still not feeling fulfilled because maybe I did something better the year or the year before that.

00:45:48.810 --> 00:45:59.130
But then you go with somebody new and you're like, oh my God, I'm going out with these people and I'm forgetting why I got into rock climbing, which is to experience movement in.

00:45:59.630 --> 00:46:04.100
Beautiful places outside, which is fundamentally what took me out there.

00:46:04.100 --> 00:46:10.750
And now I'm forgetting that and these people are reminding me of what a gift that is to be able to just do that.

00:46:12.070 --> 00:46:20.045
I, this is a very normy comparison, but, the, our local team, the Golden State Warriors, Draymond Green said that, there's nothing like winning your first championship.

00:46:20.045 --> 00:46:30.435
And the way he, in, the way he feels that, again, is helping his younger teammates get their first championship, and that's how he experiences that again.

00:46:30.435 --> 00:46:35.925
So it, again, a contrived comparison, but I do appreciate seeing people go through their first marathon.

00:46:36.425 --> 00:46:38.435
It reminds me of what that was like.

00:46:39.005 --> 00:46:43.145
I do enjoy seeing the sort of randomness who does well on race day.

00:46:43.645 --> 00:46:51.165
It like, I will silently so the Pace group I normally train, these are a bunch of people who are right around the four hour mark.

00:46:51.735 --> 00:46:55.096
so it is interesting to see who on race day actually does it and doesn't.

00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:57.600
and sometimes like you can do the training, right?

00:46:57.600 --> 00:47:00.810
But some people have a certain mentality on race day and they get it right.

00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:03.150
Some people go up too hard and blow up.

00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:06.360
it's part of the joy of just seeing how your friends do and Right.

00:47:06.390 --> 00:47:14.920
You have a much more, I'd say compared to the Warriors where I don't have any real say in how they do and they're, they're, they are, stars that I don't know.

00:47:15.221 --> 00:47:16.900
These are actual friends that I know.

00:47:16.900 --> 00:47:16.960
I.

00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:20.070
And I'm much more emotionally invested in how

00:47:20.165 --> 00:47:20.455
sure.

00:47:20.930 --> 00:47:21.250
Absolutely.

00:47:21.430 --> 00:47:21.650
Yes.

00:47:21.685 --> 00:47:26.195
I want the local team to win, but if they win or lose, it's not like I'm gonna go yell at them afterwards.

00:47:26.250 --> 00:47:28.290
Whereas my friends, it's like, what were you doing?

00:47:28.350 --> 00:47:30.415
or you can run alongside them and cheer them.

00:47:30.565 --> 00:47:34.395
And so see them in kind of their dark moments of let's say mile 22.

00:47:34.395 --> 00:47:35.295
Mile 23.

00:47:35.795 --> 00:47:36.695
it's fascinating.

00:47:37.250 --> 00:47:40.550
Absolutely no, I wish I had a personal bond with Steph Curry, but I don't,

00:47:41.105 --> 00:47:41.615
Exactly.

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:44.900
stronger bond with the people I trained with every day.

00:47:45.425 --> 00:47:45.995
exactly.

00:47:46.580 --> 00:47:47.660
so there is more rested

00:47:48.160 --> 00:47:48.490
Yeah.

00:47:48.990 --> 00:47:51.630
before we wrap up and move to the next, next section.

00:47:52.005 --> 00:47:52.425
Sure.

00:47:52.770 --> 00:48:03.170
On the topic of, again, routines and maintenance, have you seen your diet evolve as you have, grown as a runner?

00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:06.620
Any things you do differently you pay attention to?

00:48:06.890 --> 00:48:13.060
You mentioned, for example, that you have joint pain sometimes, and what do you do about that?

00:48:13.560 --> 00:48:19.250
What do you do to fuel yourself on race days versus, normal days?

00:48:19.255 --> 00:48:23.721
Anything specific that comes to mind that you think people may benefit from?

00:48:24.230 --> 00:48:24.920
fair question.

00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:30.280
I, the one I am, I'm definitely not a very disciplined eater.

00:48:30.530 --> 00:48:35.380
I'm vegetarian, but within that search space, oh, pizza, it's great.

00:48:35.500 --> 00:48:37.240
so I will go to a lot of these.

00:48:37.245 --> 00:48:40.810
In fact, my Strava is pretty much just what restaurant did I go to today?

00:48:41.120 --> 00:48:43.550
so I'd say I pay some attention to it.

00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:55.130
the one thing that may be actually pertinent for people training to your audience is there's, I think, huge value in being able to eat and run and benefit from that.

00:48:55.130 --> 00:48:57.860
I think if you don't get used to consuming something.

00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:04.000
That'll eventually be a detriment to your performance, unless you're really trying to do the fasted run, or that's a kind of a very advanced thing.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:14.221
I don't really even do that much, but I think getting used to eating real food or just quantities of food and being able to soldier on is important.

00:49:14.701 --> 00:49:25.430
So I admit, I'm one where it's possible I'm leaving a few minutes on the table by not eating, by not consulting a dietician or being strict about my diet.

00:49:25.430 --> 00:49:35.701
But it's one of the things I've just accepted that, no, I think I'm just going to eat what I wanna eat, and I'll accept the consequences of my training and results as a result of that.

00:49:35.730 --> 00:49:42.530
maybe the takeaway there is there's some immutables in your life and if I were, let's say, an aspiring Olympian, yes.

00:49:42.530 --> 00:49:44.930
Every aspect of my life must align.

00:49:44.930 --> 00:49:44.990
I.

00:49:45.490 --> 00:49:47.590
For that goal, but I'm okay with it.

00:49:47.590 --> 00:49:53.630
And that's part of picking it up later on in life is okay, I really care about how I'm doing, but no, I'm gonna go to this restaurant.

00:49:53.630 --> 00:50:03.165
And, if some dieticians would say that this, maybe that donut isn't the best thing for you, it's ah, I think I'm gonna have that donut and then I'm gonna run and it's fine.

00:50:03.215 --> 00:50:03.995
I'll be okay.

00:50:04.305 --> 00:50:05.475
the body is resilient.

00:50:05.525 --> 00:50:06.515
diet could be better.

00:50:06.565 --> 00:50:12.895
a lot of things could be better, but I'm happy to support local restaurants even if it means a minute off my pr, let's say.

00:50:13.395 --> 00:50:13.875
Got it.

00:50:14.375 --> 00:50:18.805
I would agree that, staying fueled seems to also work for me.

00:50:19.076 --> 00:50:19.495
Yeah.

00:50:19.826 --> 00:50:22.985
And, any reluctance I had

00:50:23.555 --> 00:50:23.735
Yeah.

00:50:24.005 --> 00:50:27.965
to avoid eating while I'm, doing my sports.

00:50:27.965 --> 00:50:33.275
I think, I look back to this one Netflix documentary.

00:50:33.815 --> 00:50:34.535
I don't know if you saw,

00:50:35.035 --> 00:50:35.255
Oh,

00:50:35.390 --> 00:50:42.590
it's, it's the, it's that the documentary where this, older swimmer sets a record by swimming from Miami to Ana.

00:50:43.090 --> 00:50:46.260
It's, I recommend, if you haven't seen it yet, watch this thing called Nyad.

00:50:46.310 --> 00:50:46.820
crazy.

00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:57.620
Insane story of this, badass swimmer who over multiple years managed to accomplish only, I think the only person to have ever done this so far, to do the thing.

00:50:57.980 --> 00:51:22.471
And the one, montage from that movie that stays imprinted in my memory bank is how she also had to keep fueling because of that swim took, I think of a couple of days continuous swimming, of her slurping down pasta while she was, bouncing or boing up and down, the ocean just to stay fueled.

00:51:22.471 --> 00:51:31.270
So I'm like, Hey, if you can, if she can eat something like pasta while she's swimming, I'm sure I can eat a power bar while I am, out, rock climbing

00:51:31.810 --> 00:51:42.410
No, I don't know if you saw some of the run art, like one of the, genres I've done or one of the patterns is to draw a certain food shape while going to places eating that food shape.

00:51:42.620 --> 00:51:47.695
So whether it be the donut, the pizza slice, the Dante, the Chinese Egg Tart.

00:51:48.135 --> 00:51:53.415
and so yes, how do you feel after your, to your sixth slice or your sixth egg tart or your sixth donut?

00:51:53.596 --> 00:51:57.765
it may not be easy, but you gotta get it down if you are gonna be out there for hours and hours.

00:51:57.765 --> 00:52:01.635
So maybe the one practical tip, I would say for anyone interested.

00:52:02.135 --> 00:52:14.225
Is get used to eating deep into your activity, even if you're not, most people can still eat, let's say, early in their activity in the first hour or two, but then they will be supposedly sick of it by, let's say the third or fourth hour.

00:52:14.285 --> 00:52:17.675
You, you've gotta continue eating, and your body will Thank you.

00:52:18.175 --> 00:52:22.055
Absolutely the calories are, not being consumed in vain.

00:52:22.385 --> 00:52:22.596
Yeah.

00:52:23.096 --> 00:52:26.815
I also liked hearing that you are a vegetarian athlete.

00:52:27.295 --> 00:52:29.125
I I am vegetarian myself.

00:52:29.665 --> 00:52:52.925
And one of the things that I keep thinking about is a lot of these messages I get these days, not just from food companies, but even from athletes that, that as you get older, the amount of protein that you eat is important, again, to keep the body nourished, wondering what your views are on that and, and how do you keep and yeah.

00:52:52.925 --> 00:52:58.195
How do you make sure you get enough nutrition in your diet to meet your needs.

00:52:58.195 --> 00:53:02.846
And if, I don't know if you even have a coach or a trainer who helps you, design your diet.

00:53:03.010 --> 00:53:04.059
No, I wish I did.

00:53:04.399 --> 00:53:10.199
it's something where, it go, goes back to the simple adage here of try to eat a variety of things.

00:53:10.699 --> 00:53:12.889
I eat a lot of nuts, sub tofu.

00:53:13.389 --> 00:53:20.019
I don't think I do anything particularly to make sure, I guess I had the protein powder that I mentioned in my oatmeal.

00:53:20.329 --> 00:53:24.529
I think if your diet feels relatively balanced, I think I'm generally okay.

00:53:24.589 --> 00:53:30.209
but it's not something where I have the luxury of, let's say, doing, having blood work done every month sure.

00:53:30.454 --> 00:53:35.629
I guess if I were, I might be actually more inspired to, if, let's say the races weren't going well.

00:53:35.629 --> 00:53:44.054
So in some sense, like I don't wanna be like the end's justifying the means, but as long as I'm consistently hitting targets, like part of me thinks could I be that bad?

00:53:44.384 --> 00:53:54.784
so because I've been lucky or had a reasonable track record, one of my goals last year was to crack, the three 20 mark and the marathons, and I managed to do that at all three.

00:53:55.204 --> 00:53:59.784
And so I was like, okay, I couldn't be that bad if I'm doing that at every marathon.

00:53:59.954 --> 00:54:08.984
but yeah, I'm not saying it's not important, but it's something where I've just accepted, whatever results I can generate with the diet that I have.

00:54:09.484 --> 00:54:10.024
Absolutely.

00:54:10.024 --> 00:54:13.264
And yeah, you are finding progress,

00:54:13.359 --> 00:54:13.649
yeah,

00:54:14.149 --> 00:54:18.029
which indicates whatever that you're doing is working.

00:54:18.529 --> 00:54:24.369
Any supplementation though, that you take outside of the normal food that you

00:54:24.534 --> 00:54:25.314
I probably should.

00:54:25.714 --> 00:54:29.714
but I haven't been too, yeah, not at the moment.

00:54:30.214 --> 00:54:30.754
Absolutely.

00:54:31.254 --> 00:54:31.944
Moving on.

00:54:32.484 --> 00:54:32.694
Okay.

00:54:33.194 --> 00:54:37.684
Let's talk a little bit about, behaviors, beliefs, habits.

00:54:38.269 --> 00:54:38.629
Okay.

00:54:39.129 --> 00:54:51.314
In the last several years, has there been any specific, habit or behavior that you have intentionally picked up that has most improved your life?

00:54:51.814 --> 00:54:54.875
I could, I'll tell you something that I probably should come back to.

00:54:55.184 --> 00:54:56.774
so it's an area of improvement.

00:54:56.824 --> 00:54:57.875
For us all.

00:54:58.154 --> 00:55:03.474
I think earlier in my racing, I would be better about let's say the week of the race.

00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:04.584
I tend to be a night owl.

00:55:04.734 --> 00:55:21.629
It's also because I'm up late sometimes to attend local music shows, but the race week would approach, I would shift my schedule so that I was like, in the ideal case, getting closer to waking up naturally on race day at the event time, which could be like 3:00 AM 4:00 AM waking up.

00:55:21.750 --> 00:55:25.355
So you, I would be better about shifting my schedule earlier.

00:55:25.754 --> 00:55:32.554
last year, I didn't do as much of that and still managed to do okay, but it made for like a very rude adjustment on the day of.

00:55:33.004 --> 00:55:38.109
So I consider my, I think one of my year's resolutions for 2024 was to get back to that.

00:55:38.609 --> 00:55:50.269
so that's one another thing we mentioned a little bit earlier, but in terms of habits, There was a time, let's say 2021, where I would try to do two or three hard workouts a week.

00:55:50.769 --> 00:55:56.929
Now I'm better about just saying I only need to do one, one and a half or two, and that's fine enough.

00:55:57.366 --> 00:56:09.236
so one of the things I have done better in the last year, I'd say, is going into races, a little undertrained or under, not as, under strain as they would in some earlier races.

00:56:09.656 --> 00:56:11.906
So just I'd say like little fine tuning.

00:56:12.456 --> 00:56:13.956
Going in as fresh as possible.

00:56:14.031 --> 00:56:15.501
yeah, going as fresh as possible.

00:56:15.922 --> 00:56:21.101
I think this is, it's what I like about running is this, it's this path of self-discovery.

00:56:21.651 --> 00:56:27.641
even if I had a coach, they're not gonna know, they're not gonna feel exactly how I feel internally, right?

00:56:27.641 --> 00:56:29.626
There's no way you can transcribe for someone.

00:56:30.126 --> 00:56:31.806
How it feels right at the end of the run.

00:56:31.806 --> 00:56:36.547
you could write some notes as you could communicate to your coach, but they're not gonna know exactly how you're feeling.

00:56:36.547 --> 00:56:47.366
So I think to have success in sport, whether it be running or something else, being able to perceive how you're doing is really critical leading up to the race.

00:56:47.366 --> 00:56:55.906
And I'd say even during a race too, I think I'm much more at peace with starting a little slower and seeing what kind of day it's gonna be.

00:56:55.956 --> 00:56:57.996
You can look at how you've done in training.

00:56:57.996 --> 00:57:06.306
you can have all these race calculators, you can have all these things saying how you should do, but nothing's as same as like a quarter or a third of the way through.

00:57:06.426 --> 00:57:08.016
Like you know how it's going, right?

00:57:08.016 --> 00:57:09.666
And being able to adjust your plan.

00:57:10.176 --> 00:57:25.706
So I think more recently, instead of having a very specific target time, I've gone in there with this range of expectations and as if I'm trying to aim in between two goalposts, So having a little bit of flexibility about how it's gonna be.

00:57:25.736 --> 00:57:29.896
And my friend Dario, he had a great comment to me.

00:57:30.106 --> 00:57:33.076
He just said at the halfway part of the marathon, what kind of day it's gonna be.

00:57:33.076 --> 00:57:40.211
And so like part of my goal now is okay, let get to the half, I'll know how it's gonna be and I'll like replan or kind of readjust from there.

00:57:40.711 --> 00:57:41.261
Makes sense.

00:57:41.761 --> 00:57:46.433
I think it's along the same theme of, Keeping your, training a little bit under.

00:57:47.423 --> 00:57:55.093
Also keeping your expectations a little bit under, and then letting those things, calibrate as you go through the race.

00:57:55.143 --> 00:57:59.248
and I think it's really having a confidence to adjust to that new information.

00:57:59.253 --> 00:58:01.833
may, maybe the way I'd frame it is you have very.

00:58:02.333 --> 00:58:11.483
Objective measures of how you're doing, like the time that's showing on your watch, the splits, and then you have this very subjective, more kind of emotional, like, how do I feel?

00:58:11.483 --> 00:58:17.223
so I wouldn't ever, I don't think I'd ever have the wherewithal to run completely by feel.

00:58:17.283 --> 00:58:23.523
I think I'll always probably be looking at something, some data oriented stuff, but I wouldn't be like a slave to the data either.

00:58:23.523 --> 00:58:39.208
And so the thing that I think I've been better about more recently is trying to marriage these two inputs and like they both I kind of com I try to combine them mentally to with this picture of okay, I feel great or not great, but the time says this.

00:58:39.208 --> 00:58:43.968
And I'll, combine them for a certain approach for the second half of the race.

00:58:44.468 --> 00:58:54.418
I am guessing that the very best athletes are able to, find that within combination of data and, instinct to guide, guide the performance.

00:58:54.928 --> 00:59:00.078
Because my thing is if you just went by field, don't you always feel horrible at the end of the race and you just slow down, right?

00:59:00.078 --> 00:59:06.948
So there's something to like this objective measure of you are not going this pace that you thought you could try to go that pace.

00:59:06.978 --> 00:59:07.698
Let's go.

00:59:07.798 --> 00:59:10.588
and it of course it feels disproportionately easy in the beginning, right?

00:59:10.638 --> 00:59:12.648
you don't wanna just go on that.

00:59:13.148 --> 00:59:13.778
Absolutely.

00:59:14.278 --> 00:59:19.878
What are, maybe, so we talked about some of the things that you have.

00:59:20.378 --> 00:59:22.718
Learn to do, which have helped you perform well.

00:59:23.218 --> 00:59:30.053
What could be, let's say, one poor habit that you want to, break out of?

00:59:30.438 --> 00:59:30.858
Yeah.

00:59:31.268 --> 00:59:32.683
I alluded to a couple of them.

00:59:32.763 --> 00:59:38.573
I do need to get wake up earlier, get on, Get on the race day timing sooner.

00:59:38.693 --> 00:59:40.884
I gotten Cavalier last year and still had good results.

00:59:40.884 --> 00:59:42.113
So that's one I wanna bring back.

00:59:42.613 --> 00:59:43.663
no, you have a good point.

00:59:43.663 --> 00:59:49.473
It, especially there, those middle aged males, it would probably be a good idea to do that annual checkup.

00:59:49.803 --> 00:59:55.163
it will not shock anyone to let, do all of us get our annual physical and blood work done.

00:59:55.163 --> 00:59:55.943
Ah, not really.

00:59:56.313 --> 01:00:02.443
so that's a case where in terms of listening to my own advice right now, I'm largely going off field.

01:00:02.473 --> 01:00:05.738
It would be nice to have the data to see exactly what my blood work number is.

01:00:05.738 --> 01:00:09.158
that may be more common on the kind of a US healthcare system too.

01:00:09.158 --> 01:00:13.468
It'd be nice to be able to get that information more regularly without paying an arm and a leg.

01:00:13.468 --> 01:00:14.848
But we are where we are.

01:00:15.348 --> 01:00:20.223
so I'd say like I will continue to monitor those two, but I probably could, I.

01:00:20.723 --> 01:00:24.113
Have some improvement there to making sure my diet supports my running.

01:00:24.643 --> 01:00:27.613
I'm sure I'll be a lot more motivated if I have a race where I melt down.

01:00:28.113 --> 01:00:31.503
I'll quickly sign up for my physical right after that.

01:00:32.003 --> 01:00:37.393
I spoke to a, a world class, big wave surfer recently, who's who also happens to be a.

01:00:37.893 --> 01:00:39.893
medical doctor, his name is, Dr.

01:00:39.893 --> 01:00:40.463
Mark Maner.

01:00:40.763 --> 01:00:42.773
Anyway, so yeah, he advised me on the same thing.

01:00:42.773 --> 01:00:43.703
So I'm the same way.

01:00:44.009 --> 01:00:53.318
I have this inertia about getting my blood work done on a regular basis, and he said yet, yes, one is shooting from the hip, otherwise, we are trying different things.

01:00:53.318 --> 01:01:00.438
So I did have blood work done sometime back, and I did have, I was deficient in D three, which I think, many people are.

01:01:00.438 --> 01:01:03.653
So I've been taking that and he recommended a couple of places.

01:01:03.658 --> 01:01:16.803
One can get, full panel done, like function, health, et cetera, and it costs a bit of money, but I think they are able to give one a, full spectrum of, biomarkers and our readings and yeah.

01:01:16.848 --> 01:01:22.828
I guess it's something for me to look into or maybe all of us to look into, who are not doing that, doing that today.

01:01:23.323 --> 01:01:26.103
Just moving on a little bit, we talked about different things.

01:01:26.103 --> 01:01:30.343
We talked about diet, we talked about, training, we talked about some habits.

01:01:30.893 --> 01:01:42.317
Frank, as, as we are all, getting older, do you think you are prepared for aging, What are some things that you're doing well in that regard and some things you should start doing?

01:01:42.817 --> 01:01:43.466
good question.

01:01:43.781 --> 01:01:52.436
the thing I'm most prepared for is the trajectory, which I alluded to earlier where I know it's gonna be harder to wr out some gains.

01:01:53.006 --> 01:02:03.386
I will try and then I'll be at peace with this other, this next stage of running where maybe it's just, doing it for the sport or supporting other people in the sport.

01:02:03.746 --> 01:02:04.706
I'm okay with that.

01:02:04.826 --> 01:02:08.547
So I'd say like the thing that I'm probably most prepared for is the mentality.

01:02:09.006 --> 01:02:15.086
I don't know if I'm doing anything else to necessarily prepare for running

01:02:15.172 --> 01:02:18.806
and by the way, it doesn't just have to be about, specifically running.

01:02:18.986 --> 01:02:21.126
It could be about, your life as a whole.

01:02:21.626 --> 01:02:23.846
Yeah, no, I think I'm reasonably set up.

01:02:23.916 --> 01:02:27.426
it's an honor and privilege to be able to spend time this way.

01:02:27.431 --> 01:02:30.616
I should be able to do it that way for the near term.

01:02:30.866 --> 01:02:33.186
I don't see any reason why I can't, no.

01:02:33.192 --> 01:02:35.246
Just trying to stay healthy and, yeah.

01:02:35.746 --> 01:02:39.446
One thing I do love about, about your personality as compared to many athletes.

01:02:39.446 --> 01:02:43.256
you obviously, you do put so much focus into your running, but one is you can.

01:02:43.756 --> 01:02:48.036
You find a way to add more fun by, with the art perspective.

01:02:48.336 --> 01:02:56.056
And then you also, you also go and listen to music shows, which is great because I speak with other, endurance athletes.

01:02:56.061 --> 01:03:05.411
a lot of them are, are the blocks, before the sun comes up and putting their training miles in or whatnot, which means they can't really be out at, watching, uh, rock shows.

01:03:05.567 --> 01:03:05.956
shows.

01:03:06.011 --> 01:03:13.206
so I like the way you find balance, which is, nothing, hey, nothing wrong with other others and what schedule they follow.

01:03:13.206 --> 01:03:14.936
But I like going to music events myself.

01:03:14.966 --> 01:03:17.036
One of my favorite things about living in the city.

01:03:17.241 --> 01:03:26.916
and this is a little bit about picking up later in life where the, if I had to self-describe, I would probably say I'm a punk rocker more than I'm a runner in terms of lifetime.

01:03:27.416 --> 01:03:31.976
the number of shows I've attended is, let's say it's probably almost 800.

01:03:32.476 --> 01:03:32.696
Wow.

01:03:33.246 --> 01:03:35.731
so let's say last year I saw about, I.

01:03:36.231 --> 01:03:37.101
50 shows.

01:03:37.371 --> 01:03:41.061
So imagine this is at least once a week or roughly once a week.

01:03:41.361 --> 01:03:43.821
I'm out till 10, 11, 12, wherever.

01:03:43.826 --> 01:03:48.471
And then not surprisingly, it's not like I get home and just completely crash, right?

01:03:48.621 --> 01:03:52.041
You're still a little too hopped up or I've run back from the show.

01:03:52.541 --> 01:03:53.771
And I've just accepted that.

01:03:53.771 --> 01:03:54.071
Yeah.

01:03:54.071 --> 01:03:56.442
I'm gonna be asleep, falling asleep at one, two, whatever.

01:03:56.861 --> 01:04:13.451
And I understand and acknowledge this is probably, not the optimum for sing, but I, like I mentioned about the diet and other things, there's certain immutables that like, I will accept whatever results I get and as close as possible.

01:04:13.451 --> 01:04:15.821
I'm one where like I wanna try to have it all.

01:04:16.096 --> 01:04:23.801
I intellectually understand that's not possible, but I'm still dumb enough to like, no, I'm gonna try and stubborn enough.

01:04:23.806 --> 01:04:24.966
It's no, I'm gonna go to the show.

01:04:25.466 --> 01:04:26.817
I'm gonna run with the slice of pizza.

01:04:27.317 --> 01:04:30.516
Then I'm gonna try to drill it on Sunday at on Race day.

01:04:31.086 --> 01:04:44.466
And I've been lucky in that, like I'm pulling the all mall off, at least reasonably while acknowledging yes, if I were doing this to save my life, I would probably cut one and focus on the other, but I don't have to.

01:04:44.966 --> 01:04:45.626
Badass.

01:04:45.666 --> 01:05:04.826
I think this is just refreshing about the way you have approached your sport goes on to say that, there, there's more than one road that leads to Rome and one can be hyper dialed in and focused, singularly focused on one's training, but one can also accomplish other interesting things in life

01:05:04.876 --> 01:05:05.166
yeah.

01:05:05.326 --> 01:05:08.186
and still manage to pursue at, your support at a high level.

01:05:08.636 --> 01:05:20.206
I think something specifically to running may, maybe it's different for other sports, I'd say, is it doesn't, I at least I haven't found that it benefits from intellectualizing or thinking about all throughout the week, right?

01:05:20.336 --> 01:05:25.586
you go out and you nail your run and then your mind should just really be elsewhere while your body kind of recuperates.

01:05:25.976 --> 01:05:38.236
I don't know if like for most of us hobby joggers or like weekend warrior types who are like Olympians and maybe even I'd say for them too, it probably isn't healthy or it's not even the best performance wise.

01:05:38.236 --> 01:05:40.791
They're like solely so focused to oh no, I can't go out.

01:05:40.797 --> 01:05:44.656
I'm just gonna sit at home and wonder how I'm gonna do Sunday or whatnot.

01:05:44.656 --> 01:05:52.676
I do think there's some benefit to taking your mind off as much as I said earlier, that it's nice to challenge yourself and think throughout a run and push yourself to the limit that way.

01:05:52.676 --> 01:05:56.456
I think once a run's done, you don't have to think about it anymore, it's done.

01:05:56.646 --> 01:05:57.846
let your body go recover.

01:05:58.346 --> 01:05:59.006
Absolutely.

01:05:59.547 --> 01:06:15.476
obviously you managed to make the space to keep pursuing some hobbies and interests outside of running, but at the same time, given your output as an athlete and the effort that goes in, there's this sacrifice.

01:06:15.521 --> 01:06:16.271
Yes, absolutely.

01:06:16.856 --> 01:06:23.996
Any significant sacrifices that you are making or have made to achieve this life?

01:06:24.531 --> 01:06:26.571
nothing too significant.

01:06:26.631 --> 01:06:29.881
there, I'd say big picture and small picture.

01:06:30.371 --> 01:06:36.656
leading up to the week of the race, I probably do not go to a show that week of cause I don't wanna be that thrashed.

01:06:36.726 --> 01:06:40.926
I, maybe I'll revisit that, but usually on the week of, I try to, I at least focus for that.

01:06:41.406 --> 01:06:43.656
I'm lucky enough to be able to be working part-time.

01:06:44.156 --> 01:06:46.317
Which allows me to do all this nonsense.

01:06:46.797 --> 01:06:55.541
And so I'd say it's something to consider for your audience if, is there a way people can if the, if this is something they wanna pursue, can they opt down?

01:06:55.961 --> 01:07:08.051
Are they established enough career wise where maybe they'll need to be vice president of whatever and can kind go back to being, let's say, an individual contributor and nurturing other aspects of your life?

01:07:08.051 --> 01:07:11.797
So I know I'm conceding let's say something career-wise, but I'm at peace with that.

01:07:12.297 --> 01:07:16.436
certainly there's other things I'm sure I'm giving up on, but it doesn't feel like it too much.

01:07:16.436 --> 01:07:25.756
And I'm getting enough reward from, I'd say the various facets of my life that it doesn't feel like I'm overly weighing one thing, and nor do I feel like I'm passing up that much yet.

01:07:26.256 --> 01:07:26.946
Absolutely.

01:07:27.446 --> 01:07:29.096
We are nearing, the end of our time here.

01:07:29.196 --> 01:07:33.266
Frank, just a couple of fun questions before, before we let you go.

01:07:33.547 --> 01:07:37.276
obviously you have run every student sf, which is monumental.

01:07:37.776 --> 01:07:44.946
What would be one city that you haven't run in that would be on your, bucket list?

01:07:45.496 --> 01:07:47.236
it's not very adventurous or not very far.

01:07:47.236 --> 01:07:48.736
I'll give, I'll first give a boring answer.

01:07:48.736 --> 01:07:53.506
I do wanna, I ha I am about, like a third of the way through running Berkeley or all of Berkeley.

01:07:53.716 --> 01:07:56.146
my sister lives there now and I have some history there.

01:07:56.676 --> 01:08:01.276
I, the way I've approached this as a, life goal of eh, I'll chip away at that over time.

01:08:01.276 --> 01:08:12.386
It wa it was very unlike my San Francisco pursuit, where I pretty much did over that pandemic, run a neighborhood, go home, shower, go to bed, wake up and run a different neighborhood the next day.

01:08:12.506 --> 01:08:14.426
So that was a very different kind of pursuit.

01:08:14.966 --> 01:08:16.971
no, I, I think in general, I.

01:08:17.471 --> 01:08:19.962
When I travel it, it's nice to see it by running.

01:08:19.992 --> 01:08:24.811
I don't know if I have any particular city that's screamingly scratching my itch.

01:08:25.231 --> 01:08:27.332
I guess it'd be nice to go back to Hong Kong.

01:08:27.601 --> 01:08:35.221
It is been a very long time since I've been there, but that was where, let's say my parents met and like their birthplace or kind of childhood place.

01:08:35.221 --> 01:08:40.782
eh, I, not typically a running city, but it'd be nice to go around Hong Kong and revisit that.

01:08:41.152 --> 01:08:48.726
I think the thing that when you, when I do revisit a city now in this new running era, the places feel small, right?

01:08:48.726 --> 01:08:59.806
Because you can move so quickly by running, let's say walk, then let's say walking, San Francisco, it feels like running over to the other side of the ocean, the west side.

01:09:00.306 --> 01:09:02.737
That would've been mind blowing to me in my youth, right?

01:09:02.737 --> 01:09:04.871
But now it's eh, about an hour I'll get there.

01:09:05.371 --> 01:09:06.001
For sure.

01:09:06.006 --> 01:09:15.920
And hey, I suppose to anybody listening from Hong Kong and, wanting to create run art, they will have to remember to, to dodge those, skyscrapers

01:09:15.935 --> 01:09:16.415
Oh yeah.

01:09:16.625 --> 01:09:22.555
No, in that case, there's pieces of run art where every block matters, and then there's ones that are more abstract.

01:09:22.615 --> 01:09:29.605
So maybe that ladder, eh, let's just try to draw a circle and see how smooth that circle is in the middle of, Kong.

01:09:30.105 --> 01:09:33.880
besides completing, running around Berkeley and maybe gonna Hong Kong.

01:09:33.910 --> 01:09:36.701
Any other running goals for the next five years?

01:09:37.015 --> 01:09:38.005
Next five years.

01:09:38.105 --> 01:09:41.165
so last year when I did Boston, I thought I'd be a one and done thing.

01:09:41.165 --> 01:09:42.785
I just wanted to see how it was experienced.

01:09:43.175 --> 01:09:45.095
so I said it really resonated with me.

01:09:45.095 --> 01:09:45.245
It was.

01:09:45.745 --> 01:09:47.605
It was really inspiring just to be there.

01:09:47.675 --> 01:09:51.695
it was like running Nerdery, like you just run around those other random people that you see.

01:09:52.225 --> 01:09:54.805
so it was like this convention of sorts for running nerds.

01:09:55.265 --> 01:09:57.695
so I'm going again in a few we, or in a few months.

01:09:58.205 --> 01:10:01.031
and I'm, I am inspired to keep that train going as long as I can.

01:10:01.571 --> 01:10:16.051
as far as that, I think just generally improving in time, like we mentioned, of seeing what I can do in the next five years and then gracefully, hopefully, or maybe not gracefully transitioning to the next phase where I'm just doing the best I can on that day.

01:10:16.571 --> 01:10:18.611
maybe at that point I'll be doing more run art.

01:10:18.611 --> 01:10:19.391
I'm not sure.

01:10:19.451 --> 01:10:25.317
But, no, I think the near term goal is to see what I can ring out and then I'll revisit, when I can't.

01:10:25.817 --> 01:10:30.226
Frank, I don't know if you like to read books or, watch.

01:10:30.226 --> 01:10:36.346
Watch movies, but, any favorite, book or, piece of media that you would recommend that you

01:10:36.391 --> 01:10:37.831
my favorite movie of all time.

01:10:38.011 --> 01:10:46.681
Okay, so my favorite two movies that, of which I've done run Art for is, these are very old, but like Back to the Future, one of the run art pieces I did was The Flux Capacitor.

01:10:46.876 --> 01:10:47.866
Oh, nice.

01:10:48.211 --> 01:10:52.681
And then, one of the first run art piece, I think the actually first serious run art piece I did was The Little Mermaid.

01:10:52.686 --> 01:10:53.851
That's my favorite soundtrack.

01:10:54.281 --> 01:10:54.461
Okay.

01:10:55.016 --> 01:11:00.326
so yeah, no, part of with the Run Art, it's just pieces of pop culture that inspire me.

01:11:00.656 --> 01:11:05.216
So I've done a few album covers, both for big bands

01:11:05.716 --> 01:11:05.936
Oh,

01:11:06.176 --> 01:11:10.556
and also like small bands that like, where I know the, where I know the artist.

01:11:10.916 --> 01:11:13.061
It's fun to help highlight what they've done.

01:11:13.601 --> 01:11:17.831
and cement their, album front cover on the streets of San Francisco.

01:11:18.237 --> 01:11:18.867
Beautiful.

01:11:18.867 --> 01:11:20.397
We are right back to music.

01:11:20.667 --> 01:11:36.757
On and on that note, perhaps my final question, which is one music venue that you adored that you would not mind, sending people to, and also one favorite, band outta San Francisco that needs more?

01:11:36.757 --> 01:11:37.267
love.

01:11:37.492 --> 01:11:37.972
Oh, definitely.

01:11:38.372 --> 01:11:45.342
so the venue that I've attended the most over time is Slims, which is unfortunately close, but now second place is bottom of the hill.

01:11:45.392 --> 01:11:46.347
that's a great venue.

01:11:46.467 --> 01:11:47.157
I love them.

01:11:47.647 --> 01:11:52.107
down the street, the Parkside is also in that Pater Hill area.

01:11:52.497 --> 01:11:53.367
Those are great.

01:11:53.827 --> 01:11:59.257
in terms of, one of the things that I was not expecting last year was, two bands.

01:11:59.757 --> 01:12:01.907
Played on a BART train.

01:12:02.407 --> 01:12:03.937
they're both young and up and coming.

01:12:03.937 --> 01:12:06.374
They're named false flag and surprise Privilege.

01:12:06.737 --> 01:12:09.197
I've seen them now since a bunch of times.

01:12:09.202 --> 01:12:11.897
It's been great to see their kind of ascendancy.

01:12:12.357 --> 01:12:15.207
it's the nature of punk music where it is, it's the voice of the youth.

01:12:15.507 --> 01:12:22.027
no one wants to hear like old people ranting, or maybe they do, if it's what you heard in your youth or if it's not a nostalgia,

01:12:22.512 --> 01:12:29.762
I think, I think, I think the people who love to hear old people ranting are old people themselves

01:12:29.862 --> 01:12:30.152
yeah.

01:12:30.157 --> 01:12:30.677
Exactly

01:12:31.112 --> 01:12:31.292
because.

01:12:31.427 --> 01:12:32.932
No, I, yeah.

01:12:33.112 --> 01:12:33.322
no.

01:12:33.327 --> 01:12:37.942
It's, so I've loved seeing the two of them, so I definitely try to catch the two of them.

01:12:38.312 --> 01:12:41.132
and I'm usually there, I'm usually running to the show.

01:12:41.582 --> 01:12:50.062
I'm usually down somewhere in front trying to like, make sure, although the one compromise is you won't see me in the pitter just because I'm like, oh my God, I've got this race coming up.

01:12:50.062 --> 01:12:52.282
So I'm generally a little off to the side these days.

01:12:52.622 --> 01:13:00.722
so that, that is one compromise of the music attendee experience, I'd say is I'm a little worried about like my legs being crunched, but, it's been fine.

01:13:01.092 --> 01:13:03.372
but I will run it to and from the show usually.

01:13:03.927 --> 01:13:04.767
That's super.

01:13:04.767 --> 01:13:06.687
get your running in every which way.

01:13:06.937 --> 01:13:07.157
Yep.

01:13:07.657 --> 01:13:07.987
Awesome.

01:13:08.017 --> 01:13:13.647
Hey, listen, so I know we still have, some soundbite left and it's sunny where I am in Burnell.

01:13:14.147 --> 01:13:16.427
I may be keeping you from your, afternoon run.

01:13:16.427 --> 01:13:18.857
So I will let you go.

01:13:18.857 --> 01:13:19.307
Frank.

01:13:19.427 --> 01:13:21.857
It's been a delight having you on the show.

01:13:22.142 --> 01:13:23.432
No, thanks so much for having me.

01:13:23.932 --> 01:13:24.442
Absolutely.

01:13:24.447 --> 01:13:26.332
Take care and wish you luck for your next one.

01:13:26.832 --> 01:13:27.072
All right.

01:13:27.572 --> 01:13:27.902
Bye-Bye.

01:13:31.298 --> 01:13:31.868
Wow.

01:13:31.928 --> 01:13:33.848
Frank was a pleasure to chat with.

01:13:34.388 --> 01:13:44.858
I was breaking into new ground with speaking with an urban marathon runner, but came out invigorated with Frank's passionate, but humble pursuit of his craft.

01:13:45.668 --> 01:13:46.808
He's talented.

01:13:47.078 --> 01:13:47.948
Persevering.

01:13:48.548 --> 01:13:49.358
And whip smart.

01:13:50.168 --> 01:13:52.778
But also funny irreverent.

01:13:53.408 --> 01:13:55.178
And knows a thing or two about balance.

01:13:55.958 --> 01:13:59.978
In a community where we often take ourselves a bit too seriously.

01:14:00.668 --> 01:14:02.018
Frank's humility.

01:14:02.528 --> 01:14:07.178
And balanced approach to training and life comes across as a breath of fresh air.

01:14:08.108 --> 01:14:08.708
A lot.

01:14:09.158 --> 01:14:13.028
That he saw over 50 punk rock shows last year.

01:14:13.988 --> 01:14:18.698
Do follow Frank on Instagram and Jack Howard has run art at his website ad.

01:14:19.518 --> 01:14:22.188
www.chanarcy.com.

01:14:22.958 --> 01:14:25.928
Of course you can look him up on Strava as well.

01:14:26.528 --> 01:14:29.978
The leave the links on show notes.

01:14:30.728 --> 01:14:33.488
Thanks again, Diana for helping me connect with Frank.

01:14:34.178 --> 01:14:35.678
Friends, please leave a review.

01:14:35.708 --> 01:14:36.998
If you enjoy the show.

01:14:37.598 --> 01:14:38.198
It helps.

01:14:39.068 --> 01:14:40.148
Until next time.

01:14:40.748 --> 01:14:41.708
Stay funny.

01:14:42.588 --> 01:14:43.478
stay irreverent.

01:14:44.138 --> 01:14:45.038
And ageless.