#59 Best of 2024 Part II

Best of 2024 - PART II
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Kush: Hello Friends. Welcome back to the Ageless Athlete Podcast. This is your host, Kush Khandelwal, and I am excited to bring you part two of our best of 2024 moments. If part one was about pushing limits and redefining aging through adventure, Part two dives deeper into mindsets, philosophies, and personal transformations that drive peak performance, longevity, and resilience.

Over the past year, I've had the privilege of speaking with some of the most inspiring athletes, thinkers, and coaches. People who have not only excelled in their sports, but have also reshaped the way we think about challenge, risk, and personal growth. This episode highlights profound, hand selected [00:01:00] conversations on awe, fear, longevity, second chances, and what it really means to live life fully.

Whether you are an athlete, an outdoor enthusiast, or just someone seeking more meaning in movement, these stories are packed with wisdom and inspiration. So settle in and let's revisit some of these most powerful, thought provoking and unforgettable moments from 2024. 

First up is Caroline Paul. Caroline is a best selling author, former firefighter, and lifelong adventurer.

She's flown gyrocopters, piloted boats, and climbed mountains. But what's kept her pushing boundaries is an adrenaline. It's awe. 

Caroline: And what I realized I was experiencing was this [00:02:00] concept that I think a lot of us know now because since I wrote the book, there have been books coming out about this, but at the time I knew nothing about this and it's called awe. I was awestruck. I was awe wondered, whatever the word is, I was in awe, and awe turns out is really good for you, and it's a situation that you, that we really, we, we sort of, um, we think of it as a religious, uh, word, people are often awed in religious experiences, but in fact, nature is an awe trigger. So when you look at the night sky, you feel all the eclipse.

Everybody talked about the eclipse as being, you know, awesome. Just in all basically all is the feeling that you get in the presence of something bigger than you. So it's just, it's a mystery, a mysterious, Huge thing. And it's a feeling of like wonder and dread and fear. And what it does is according to scientists, [00:03:00] they call it the reset button. It kind of opens you up neurologically because when you're in awe, you can't quite process what's going on. So you, you, there's no neural pattern that's being laid down. There's no pattern that's being that they're like, Oh, let's go to that old groove that we've, you know, cause we know what this is. Your brain, you become more open minded is what this is. is what scientists say. And so anyway, you don't, turns out that I realized, Oh, so awe is what I've been chasing for. So for many, many years, because I had noticed that I was less of a, like an adrenaline junkie, but I still love doing the things I did. I just was, I'd more wax poetic than be like, yeah, those terrible thermals I was in.

Yeah. You know, I was like, yeah, I don't really like thermals anymore. It kind of get me a little gripped when I'm up there flying. So I realized it was awe. And I wasn't boring after all, you know, it wasn't becoming sedate or boring or old, quote, old, I was seeking off and [00:04:00] turns out they did this amazing study here in San Francisco, where they asked people between the ages of 60 and 80 to go on. Uh, these 15 minute walks, they call them all walks because they asked the walkers to look at things with childlike wonder and they track these walkers over eight weeks and they found that their inflammation markers went way down. That inflammation is a sign of ill health and the walkers, the all walkers reported, self reported way lower. depression, way lower, uh, anxiety and higher gratitude and compassion, which is crazy, which makes sense. Oh, and turns out we live in a world of anti awe devices right now, which is basically our phone, which narrows our focus and makes us feel

in power and control. we need to put ourselves in more awe situations and going outside is the way to do this because it is naturally awe inspiring for us. [00:05:00] You can also cultivate all by just really, you know, when you're out there on a pretty flat day. You can still be awestruck by the tiny little rollers coming in because they're beautiful or the pelicans who are taking full advantage Or maybe if you see dolphins or just the the fact that you're in the Pacific Ocean and the city's behind you is pretty great So yeah, I was that that experience changed me because I really knew nothing about all I went into this book Not thinking all was anything.

didn't know what it was and yet it became a big part of why we should go outside a lot, I think risk is relative. Like if you want to talk about to Sean Broekman, who's the base jumper about, she does a lot of other things too. She heli skis. You know, she, she see kayaks. I mean, she does a wide range of, she runs, she does a wide range of things. So she understands like the wide range out there of risk. And I would say, yes, of course, base jumping has a higher risk, but it's [00:06:00] still relative. I mean, she's still going to prepare so that she minimizes risk as much as possible and optimizes. the beneficial parts, nobody wants to get hurt or, or die, but we are seeking those rewards.

And sometimes that reward is to push ourselves just a little bit in order for us to, again, upend our expectation of what we can do. which is so powerful and opens up the rest of our life. Now that doesn't mean you need to go base jumping. It might mean you simply go birdwatching. when I interviewed Virginia Rose, I met a guy named Eric who was a lot younger than us.

He was 35, but he'd had a very debilitating form of MS for a long time. And he was pretty much housebound. until he read a book and it featured birdwatching in it. He started to become curious about birds, but he started in his kitchen. He was in a wheelchair. [00:07:00] He just looked out his window, but birds brought him outside.

Slowly he put out feeders. Then he went to his back porch, then his backyard and his love of birds kept pushing those boundaries. I mean, I don't think risk. It's it's he wasn't trying to his his boundary pushing wasn't as much. I mean, of course it felt risky. He can't even hold binoculars. So for him, it was risky, but it was the reward was so huge because he was getting closer to birds.

And when I went on that six mile bird a thon with Virginia Rose, he also was on that. And so that's how he. He came out to his adventure over a period of years and hard one. And so it's all in the eye of the beholder. None of us can tell you what your adventure is going to be or what pushing your comfort zone is. And I [00:08:00] want to say again, like risk is a part of life. When we take pharmaceuticals that a doctor gives us, cause they say they're going to make us feel better. Have you seen how long list of side Vomiting, diarrhea, don't drive that big car. I mean, it's, I mean, and none of us, we still take that pharmaceutical. And I guess the, because we've made calculation that it's worth somehow, or we're ignoring it. I don't know. And I feel like you calculate the risk because you know that the reward, which is The beauty of nature, the possible awe, the physical vitality, the exhilaration, I mean, the list goes on. The community, I mean, the purpose, the, the novelty, like all these things that are so good for you. You're not, you're not being dumb about it. You're not just going to go base jumping. You're going to pick something that risk is part of it, but it's, it's just part of the experience because it's part of life. I'm [00:09:00] telling you that this hard one me because I

a lot of I did adventures when I was young was for that feeling of freedom. That sort tightrope that you almost yourself,

I'm not I'm not proud of that I thought it was character building. I thought it was exhilarating and But now what I what I look for is I can be I can feel adventurous just taking my paddleboard just a couple blocks down here bay and it in water

and Watching the pelicans and yeah, maybe I'll go paddle to the Bay bridge and that's cool, but it's definitely not really, I mean, risky.

Oh, the other thing Kush is I really want people to. A lot of people don't really assess risk correctly. I mean, they really go to, we could die like right away. I, I, I play this game with my friend and it's in the end of the book. We call what it's we call it. What's the worst that could happen game? [00:10:00] Because my friend tends to be a little bit more anxious than I am when we go outside, but she's my adventure partner most of the time. So, and she'll. So we, we went stand up paddling on a moonless night in order to find bioluminescence in Tamalus Bay. And a lot of that is, seems scary, but you really break it down, none of None of going kill get, you might, let's say the tides are, we had already calculated the tides, but let's just say they pushed us, you know, somewhere terrible. We couldn't find our way back. Okay, well, so you're uncomfortable. You sit on your board for eight You're not going to die. You're not going to get hypothermia

because you have a wetsuit. You know, you're not going to starve to death. I mean, when people down what the actually is, 

you'd be how benign surprised doing 

Kush: The calculation of risk is often. irrational for many of these things. The, uh, the Tomales Bay bioluminescence example [00:11:00] is a good one. 

Caroline: Even the wind walking, Kush, if you really broke it down, It sure seems, I mean, of course, if in this weird way, you jettisoned yourself, you gave into the impulse to like, Step off the wing, which I think probably in some part of our brain, there is just like when you step, uh, go to the edge of a cliff, really, I mean, how we even had a rope, tie tied to the plane.

So if we did fall, which, by the way, no one's ever fallen, uh, you know, we weren't going to fall to the ground. So yeah, you really have to take some time look at It's 

Kush: what is, uh, spurring you these days, what activities are firing in your belly

Caroline: Well, I, Learned to fly a gyrocopter for the book because I was interested in how novelty is important as we age because it tends to drop off. I mean, very few [00:12:00] people learn something new in their later life. So I learned to fly a gyrocopter. I was already a pilot, but it was a very different machine.

It's a very odd looking machine. It's like a helicopter, a tiny little helicopter with an open cockpit, and I've really fallen in love with it to be honest. And so I fly, I fly my gyro a lot, um, and the other thing is a friend of mine's learned to sail, so I sail with her. I don't really want to learn to sail, but I like this whole new medium of being out on the ocean, I'd like to learn to navigate, uh, and Yeah.

So I'm a, you know, I have my one wheel and my electric bike 

Kush: Thomas Huber is one half of the legendary Huber Brothers, a duo known for their daring first ascents and speed records on some of the world's most epic mountains and rock faces. Thomas has fallen from great heights, both metaphorically and literally, but his [00:13:00] philosophy on failure, setbacks, and recovery is what makes his story so compelling.

Thomas, ~you have, you,~ you also share some significant, let's say, injuries and debacles you've had through your life. You know, you've had several very threatening, episodes. how have you been able to bounce back? Any lessons we can learn from your ability to overcome and stay physically and mentally in shape for some of these big, audacious goals you have?

Thomas: There are many things, but first of all, I want to go back to the book about the idea of the book. I was in a talk show in Germany because, I had, a huge fall. I survived I, I fell 16 meters and I talked about this experience, what I had [00:14:00] to be close to the on the other side I was luckily survived and, uh, and then I told to the audience this story that I believe in everything and, uh, When you survive, you shouldn't look back.

You just should like to be a climber, look forward step by step. And then one journalist was sitting in the, in the audience and he said, well, Thomas, That's such a huge, great story. You have to share this story written in a book to other people to that who have no more hope. And I say, as long as you breathe, there's always hope.

You always can change something. ~You can go, you~ you're able to go forward. And this is what I said. And then [00:15:00] he said, please write this book. And then I, it came the pandemic and then I, I, I, I start writing the book and in the book, people always, um, come to my slideshows or they want to read the book, of course, uh, what you achieved, because that's our thing.

That's our gold medals on the wall. What you have. I've done. I've done the Ogre. I've done the Cerro Torre. I've done multiple times the El Capitan in free climbing, but, but that's only the trophies I got, from my life, but who I am, it's a total different story. The biggest lesson I got always when I failed, when I get injured, were in the valley, [00:16:00] and, and suddenly I realized that that only in the valley you see the beauty of the mountains, not when you're on the, 

rim, on 

the 

top, then you 

don't. and and I'm a climber, I'm a mountaineer. And I always, and I said, okay, now you're a climber and you're in the hospital, but you see the mountains and what do you want to do? Yes, I want to climb. And how you can climb the mountain? Yeah, go step by step and if you always want to be focused on the summit, you will never reach it because the summit is big and you have a goal and then you just take the goal by the side and then you go put all what you have, all your skills, your energy, your power, your fire, your love, everything, what you are able to put out from your life into the next step.

[00:17:00] And then you're already a little higher. And it, with all my injuries, I learned that I'm a, I'm a fighter. I always fight back, to, to reach at the end, the summit. And in that case, uh, in my life, I learned so much to be, yeah, to be strong and I always have to say as long as I live, I always have a hope and I always find a solution

Kush: I will take this as, this is going to be one big takeaway from this conversation is, I'll reflect on it, Thomas, which is what you said, where the beauty of the mountains is from. The Valley, when you're looking up and looking out, rather than from the top, which I think is, I think I have to repeat it a couple of times because it is this deep inside [00:18:00] Thomas through your book, you talk about the importance of family, you know, from your own childhood, uh, experiences, then later on meeting your partner, starting your family, how has your role as a husband and a father influence your approach to risk taking and self care through your climbing? And has it also changed your training or recovery routines? Wow, 

Thomas: I have to say, when I was getting father, uh, I was 30, we get our first son, it didn't change anything in risk taking as a climber, as a mountaineer, because, what I have to say, I was so deep connected, always with to be alive. And. I [00:19:00] love the life, the community, the, yeah, the friends and everything.

And, and, and for that reason, I loved also the family, even if I fight sometimes with my brother, but it's, it's my base. And, and suddenly with this responsibility and with this love of family, I was able to experience my because it was not planned, but suddenly I experienced that I have now my, I plant my own tree, my family tree.

And then I was able to grow that, but it made no difference what I was doing because I always thought when I'm going there, I want to connect with the, with the mountains and I want to come back. I'm not going to the mountains I know [00:20:00] exactly that I'm, I can die easily in the mountains, but I also can die easily on the street.

I can, uh, life is, On one moment it's, it's over, but it's not now. And I had so many close calls in my life and somehow I had always my guardian angels beside me and I'm so thankful, uh, for that. and for that, I have to say the family didn't change anything. Only my experience as a human, as a climate changed a lot, of course.

When I was young, I was more stupid. I didn't know what I'm doing. Now I know exactly how much risk is, for instance, a late took one North face. Do you

know, should I [00:21:00] tell you I was four times in the chalk toy for this wall. I never touched the wall so far because it was always too dangerous and I still believe it's possible because this line I see in this wall it in fact so much. So this is about all the process of learning as a climber and this also respect my family that I travel with this responsibility.

of not to be a family father, to be alive. So I take care about myself as good as I can. And I think it's also not very good if your family goes with you into the wall because there, there were all this disturbance about some [00:22:00] thoughts. Oh, should I do that? So when I go, I want to be, my mind should be totally clean.

and I'm totally connect with this environment. my wings go into the, into the rock, into the ice. And then the mountains will tell me, Thomas, now it's time to go or Thomas now it's the time to, to go up. Gary Linden is a legendary big wave surfer, shaper, and contest director who founded the big wave world tour. He has spent a lifetime dedicated to surfing. Unlike many of his peers who stepped away from big waves in the thirties, Gary is now 73 and [00:23:00] continued to push his limits. Longevity is not something you can really mentor. I don't think anything but, but example, like people look at me and go, wow. I see you can do it and, and we didn't have that when I was younger, you know, like there was, most of the guys were pretty much done at 30 when I was a kid, you know, our stars and everything at work or alcohol or, or, or something and, you know, taking them off the path, but, you know, I just try and, live the example that I think you should try and live that surfing is the most important thing to, to me in my life. So I want to be able to do it as best I can. And as you get older, it becomes more and more difficult. And, you know, I've talked to, to some of the older surfers, like I, you know, spoke to Greg Nolan when he was, before he passed away and just, [00:24:00] you know, great, how did you quit, man? Why he goes, well, I didn't really quit.

Gary: I just stopped going to Hawaii and I stopped making it. thing. But, you know, you look at him and he couldn't have surfed anyway because he got so heavy. And, you know, just people just kind of, they give up, you know, and a lot of people like, I, I can't surf very good at all compared to what I used to be able to surf. instead of being frustrated and going, Oh, I'm going to quit because I can't surf as good as I used to. I just go, I'm going to try and catch three waves and get to my feet, you know, and I know it's going to keep doing that till I can't do it anymore. And I don't really care, what I look like or what I don't look like.

I'm just, I just want to keep doing it because this is a, it's more to me than just a sport. It's like my meditation and, will to live and to stay healthy. You know, so it's mentally and physically, [00:25:00] it's, it's my, it's my lifesaver. So, you know, I don't drink alcohol. I don't smoke. I don't stay up late.

I don't, try not to get sidetracked and try and, you know, just keep going, man. And if somebody asks me, then that's what I tell them, you know, and, uh, I still work, try and keep active. I try and stay involved, even though I don't really want to, I just want to surf and take a nap or something, but. I still do podcasts and try and hopefully inspire somebody, you know, that yes, you know, my, my mom lived to be 99.

My dad lived to be 90 and they didn't quit. You know, they just, even though the end wasn't, you know, they weren't too healthy, you know, but cause everybody, unless you die of a heart attack, you're probably going to go through a time period of six months to a couple of years where you're [00:26:00] really not able to do much, you know, and, uh, that's a challenge, you know, and, uh, I want to be in the best shape. As I can, as I think I'm probably going to live to be 90 plus and I want to make it to a hundred, but I want to be able to walk around and carry on a conversation and, catch a wave or two. And the only way you can do it is train, you know, so you gotta

live your life in preparedness for that. So I do yoga and. Try and eat, watch what I eat and exercise many mentally and physically and surf as much as I can and try and stay as stoked about just being alive. Like, remember when I had my head injury and, for a couple of months I was pretty foggy, you know, I couldn't. I wasn't all there remember saying to myself, well, if this is all I get, I'm cool with it because it's better than [00:27:00] being dead, try and go back to that, you know, like if I'm having a bad day and I'm going, well, better than being dead, you know, you got, you know, you got a choice, you can wake up and be positive or you can wake up and be negative and, and that's the one thing we can choose.

So try and a hundred percent don't always make it. What a great life I've gotten to live and it's not over yet, I want to keep it going. 

Pretty, 

pretty pleased. 



Kush: Diana and Tim coach incarcerated men through the St. Quentin Marathon Program. A life changing initiative that gives inmates discipline, purpose, and a sense of freedom despite being behind bars. It's a running program that started, uh, probably, wait, how many years ago was it? It's about [00:28:00] 18 years ago. And, um, it was started, a volunteer on the inside reached out to the community through the local running club. The Tamalpa's looking for somebody interested in helping to start a running club on the inside, um, for, the residents inside who had expressed interest in a running club and it was posted on the Tamalpa social media board and the president of the club had put out the communication on it. No one expressed any interest in going in so he decided to do it and that was Frank Rona. And so he went in not really knowing what it was going to be like or what to expect Uh, he took over and, and led this program for 18 years and it grew, uh, started out with just a handful of men and then, and a few coaches over the first couple of years. I started in about 2009, a few years [00:29:00] after I was there for the first marathon. And this year we just had our 10th year. 14th annual marathon, so the program basically is, um, San Quentin has a number of really good volunteer programs on the inside. Um, this one go in and every other Monday we meet in the yard and do a workout and once a month on Fridays. We have a race. Uh, it starts out with a benchmark mile in January and then builds up in distance to a three mile, five mile, 10 mile, and then a two and a three hour run, a half marathon in there. And it builds up to a marathon in the fall. And, uh, we have now over, we have about 150 men on the roster now, so it's really grown in size and, uh, we regularly have, uh, 30 men at practices and we have about 15 [00:30:00] volunteers helping us with the coaching. So it's, it's, and it's been a tremendous success with, uh, we have people who've been doing it for many years and, um, well, you can talk about the film. Yeah, the film, the is a movie. It's 26. 2 to life. And ESPN has it on their ESPN plus. And if you have hula plus, you can watch it. it really captures the spirit of the team. Um, we, as coaches, we, we approach the men and the club very much from a running perspective. You know, like tonight we're going to do probably a ladder up to miles. Up to a mile, we'll do an 800 to 1200 a mile and then back down. Um, but what we have found, you know, we've coached, we've coached, you know, high school teams and we've coached adult teams and we've coached adult individuals.

diana--she-her-_1_05-06-2024_104828: And [00:31:00] like, if you're coaching a team properly. A community just builds from working together and, and athletes have really good relationship with coaches. And then athletes have really good relationships with other athletes working. And you build this community organically from just having the running thing as, you know, the main, uh, the main activity.

And so we took what we've learned at other teams and have applied it to, uh, to the team in San Quentin. And these guys happen but we. We really respect their athletic abilities. Um, we did results this morning. We did an eight mile, um, race a couple weeks ago and we're going in tonight and we'll bring certificates of completion and results and we keep course records and it's, it's really a cool thing to be involved in. And Frank started it, but he stepped aside. So [00:32:00] Diana, myself, and then another individual, Jim Maloney, we're kind of the head coaches now. it's been great. I mean, we've done it for a long time the movie changed the visibility of it, but it's still same activity going in. Monday night with a man a workout and building a community. And in terms of what we get back from it, this community is such a forgotten and overlooked community of people and, um, they are so incredibly appreciative. Uh, to people from the outside, like the coaches, us, and also the other volunteers who go in and, um, they, these connections and the running program and having a goal and being able to talk about a goal, just like for people on the outside.

That's important. Well, I would say for people on the inside. You [00:33:00] know, who often don't have any contact with anyone, including some who don't even have family that they're in contact with. Uh, it means so much to have, uh, the, the running and the connections with the coaches and other volunteers, and they show it, that appreciation.

So it's really, we get so much out of it because we can see how impactful it is to them.

kush_1_05-06-2024_104828: Thanks for sharing that. So let me understand this. So this is San Quentin prison. I think it is maybe the. oldest prison in California and 18 years ago or so they started this running program and now you guys are helping out as the head coaches. So I'm going to ask a couple of really basic questions. So, how does an inmate get either selected or self select [00:34:00] into this running program?

So can anybody go, can any inmate go and join this running program? Can you, are you disallowing maybe certain kind of inmates who maybe are on death row and could be hostile? And then once that, I don't know, once. Some people come and express interest in joining. Are you, are you putting them through some kind of basic qualification to see if they are fit enough to actually run in this, in this, uh, San Quentin running team?

Like Yeah. Walk me through like what does it, how, how does this thing transpire?

diana--she-her-_1_05-06-2024_104828: Well, that's a really good question. And, uh, at San Quentin, way it works is that only certain parts of the population have yard privileges. So there is, or there was the death row, which now is being closed down and those people [00:35:00] are being transferred to other places. Uh, but there are. different levels, uh, um, within San Quentin where certain populations do not have yard privileges.

So they would not be eligible to be members in the club. But other than that, there's no restriction. And we, and an important part of the club actually is our inside contact, because it's really a, it's really a club that's led by the men on the inside. So the incarcerated men have a president of the club. They have bylaws. They really run the club and we facilitate it by being the coaches who come in and help, help them. Um, so the, so our president right now, who's been the president for quite a while, is Tommy Wickard. He's in the film. He's one of the men featured. Uh, so he does a lot in terms of Outreach and finding people who are interested or if someone's interested they get referred to Tommy or one of the other current members and they come to the workout, sign up, we have a roster, we maintain that roster, [00:36:00] but basically anyone who is out on the yard and can come out for the workouts is eligible.

to be in the club and they have earned those yard privileges. Um, so a lot of the population at San Quentin people who, um, and this was the, the population does change, um, over time, there are different types of people who end up at San Quentin. Um, right now, uh, in the early years, I would say most of the population that was, that were club members were people with very long sentences, like life sentences, uh, but who also had been there for a long time and San Quentin has a lot of programs, so it's people who have done a lot of programming, and maybe have been incarcerated for 10, 15, 20 plus years, and the age profile early on was more people in their fifties and sixties, so sort of an older population. That's changing now. We, we definitely have more, uh, younger men. Um, [00:37:00] but I would say that still a lot of people with the longer sentences, but they're ones who have earned the privilege of being at a place like San Quentin and having yard privileges at San Quentin. So do you want to, I mean the, and then the other thing is like we, we deliver certain goods. We give a hat out and, and there've been years when we give shoes out and that will create, that creates a lot of buzz within the prism. And it's super interesting. There are certain athletes that are very interested in being in the club just for that stuff. But what we have found by having a good program having fun and developing, we were in, two or last Monday, I think we had eight coaches. And they're really good. They're good people. The guys get into it and you know, you're doing intervals together and you're laughing and you're warming up and you're warming [00:38:00] down and then we're doing a stretch like that community thing I talked about. So we have certain members that will absolutely never we run around a quarter mile track.

So it's 105 laps. To finish the marathon, there are certain guys that will not and should not ever finish or try to finish the marathon. But what we do as coaches, we, we emphasize participation and we emphasize improvement based on where you've started. So if you're that minute 5k runner. you want to join the club and you get down to 38 minutes over a couple of years, that's, that's a victory for the club. And you know, it's the same thing we, we used to emphasize when we were coaching high school, it's improvement relative from where you start. And so we got all different shapes, shapes and [00:39:00] sizes. It's awesome. And we have, we had a guy around 305. Last November, he broke the course record. I mean, that's moving. Um, and then we have guys that are running 6 or 7 hour marathons and love them all. It's great. And it's very much about athletics. We don't want to know what you're doing. Why you ended up in there. How you ended up there. there are times when it comes up when we get to know people, but if somebody shows up in the yard to train and they have invested, they have a true interest in improving themselves. and learning the discipline running a marathon and doing tempo runs and doing intervals and watching your diet and hydrating and rest and recovery. They take those, those disciplines and they apply it to other things. It may be their AA, it may be their NA, it may be their restorative justice. It may [00:40:00] be different programs working on their past. working on their future, looking at their families, considering their victims. There's all sorts of things these guys are working on. So it's really, it's a fascinating, um, population to be amongst and we're, we're really lucky to be involved in the program because I will tell you these guys, are working hard on themselves.

So it's super interesting. Yeah. We feel it's more, it's a, it is a privilege to be able to work with them. And in terms of the population, when I first went in, I would, I didn't know what to expect. Um, but it is really, you know, it might seem like, wow, that is it scary or, you know, do you feel threatened all of those things and immediately going in. I learned that that's not what the environment is at all, that these are people who are really. who know that it is a privilege to have volunteers come in and that [00:41:00] you lose that if anything, it goes wrong or if there's anything done or said that's not, that's not appropriate or anything else. So, um, right from the beginning, it was, uh, a feeling of, Um, being really welcomed and, um, that it's special for them to be there. And we have learned that it's really special for us to also be able to go in and work with them. And I think we may have got the timing wrong. Diana's year going inside and I'm in my ninth. So it's been, a long term, long term

kush_1_05-06-2024_104828: Wow. Wow. That's a, yeah, that's a generation. Uh, you know, fascinating is a good word. I am very fascinated. With this, as I'm sure people listening to this podcast will be. And, um, I feel I could just talk about the work you're doing there, uh, all day, but maybe [00:42:00] one or two key things I want to understand one is video experience coaching over the last two decades at San Quentin, any, any key insights that you have gained about the transformative impact of video coaching.

Power of running. You could even illustrate with maybe a couple of personal stories of people.

diana--she-her-_1_05-06-2024_104828: Yeah, I mean, there, there are almost too many stories to think of. And I can think of individuals. Um, but like the arc, typically they show up, athletes show up and they're totally clueless as to what's going on and we teach them the vocabulary and we teach them what an interval is and what a race is and what [00:43:00] the difference between a 5k miler and a half marathon and a marathon and the output effort and, When you run the marathon it does it changes you and when you run it with a group and there is this Outward desire for people to succeed from others. It does change the person you are I mean we have seen so many guys their lives from a world of trauma and hurt and a lot of negative stuff and just step by step, like each workout, they get more connected with us.

And it, it doesn't always happen. Sometimes people show up for three workouts and we never see him again, but other guys, they [00:44:00] start to kind of get into it. And then they're asking questions and, you know, and for many of them, just having somebody that cares about something in their lives, genuinely, makes a difference for who they are. And then the thing that we're really looking for them to do, and it happens organically. We never have to mention it. We want them to apply all that stuff to the other parts of their lives. I already mentioned it, but it does happen. And it's really, uh, you know, it's abstract, but you can see it in people and you can see their changes.

And we have gotten, we've gotten over 53 guys who have gotten out in the club the 18 years and we are, we are very much in touch with many of them on the outside some of them are software developers [00:45:00] at companies and just crushing it then other guys have, have trouble. They have trouble when they have to apply for a job because they got to check a box and there's a wide variety but they are trying and in our population many of them were lifers. And what we have found is if you are given a chance, you do your 20, 25, 30 years, and then you get your chance to get out and you're paroled, you don't mess up. I mean, we have had zero guys go back,

kush_1_05-06-2024_104828: Wow. So

diana--she-her-_1_05-06-2024_104828: that's, I think it's a lot because they're long, they're long time residents. So when they're given the chance, they go to these, they go to these facilities. That the CDRC sets up and they follow the rules. I mean, these guys are not messing around. Like I was told I was going to be in life. 10 years, Diana's coached, [00:46:00] maybe one or two guys got out. parole was not a thing. We didn't even think it was going to ever happen for a lot of these. a lot of these athletes.

So super interesting. Yeah. And the connections that you make inside, especially over the years, because running is just that continuous. Some of the programs in, at San Quentin are focused. So you, you graduate and then you move on, but running is just like running for all of us. It's just, you know, you meet friends and you stay together over the years. you really form those special connections through running. Um, just like you do on the outside, you do that on the inside. And every day, my, my day starts, Tim Day's start, and I think that he, there, with a text from one of the guys who was a club member on the inside and is now on the outside. Happy Wednesday, happy hump day, love you both, you know, hope you have a great day. Um, another one I'll read that I [00:47:00] got, yesterday from um, another person who I knew for those 17 years. He was in the club when I joined. Um, and he said, he sent a picture of him on an electric bike with his granddaughter. He said, this is me where I'm moving to giving my daughter, granddaughter a ride on my electric bike, have the best time out there. And then he said, look at the hat and shoes. Do you recognize them? The ones you guys got me. Thanks for being so kind to me. You two are the best friends I had in prison. And, you know, you, you make those connections and that means a lot, like coming from him, you know, I know that's from his heart and I feel the same way with him and at the same time, I'm really happy to see him launch, like he's going to move to Southern California and he's, he's moving in with his daughter and his granddaughter and he's going to be happy and he's going to be good, but that connection that we had with him. in prison meant a lot. And it gives these guys who are on the inside hope, you know, [00:48:00] connection. He didn't have any connection with that daughter or anybody. Um, but it was a bridge. And then when he got out and even like in inside early on, some of the guys would have got, go come up to me and say, you know, you coming inside.

It means so much because some day some of us are going to get out, get out and knowing how to talk to people and connect with people and knowing that there are people who are kind on the outside and are there will make us better and better to be on the outside and be good people that we want to be. 

Kush: Hazel Finley is one of the top climbers in the world, but her real expertise lies in the mental side of performance.

As a coach specializing in fear management, she helps athletes and everyday adventurers with Breakthrough mental barriers that hold them back. 

Hazel: climbing is a, is a sport [00:49:00] that it's psychologically demanding and we just, in the same way that we can overload our muscles and cause an injury, we can overload our nervous system. and create small injury, just as an analogy here, not like an actual injury, but you know, something that's analogous to a small injury, analogous to maybe like burnout of your physical system, or you can create a big injury, um, That's analogous to like, I don't know, breaking your leg or something and that would be like PTSD.

So it is a spectrum, right? When we overdo it, we stress the mind in ways, where it can be difficult to recover. So ideally, how we kind of learn from a psychological perspective in climbing is through optimally challenging ourselves. So you might have heard of exposure [00:50:00] therapy, right? You gradually expose yourself to these things that you find scary.

And a really, like, simple way of thinking about this is like with phobias. Like, say you had a spider, a fear of spiders, you wouldn't, like, jump in a bath of spiders to get over your fear of spiders, right? Like, that would totally freak you out. What you might do is you might, like, watch a TV show about spiders, you might hold a tiny, tiny spider first, and then you might slowly Um, be closer or nearer to, to bigger spiders, right?

And you'd slowly learn these spiders are not going to hurt me. Um, so it's kind of the same with, um, these different aspects of climbing or whatever sport it is you're doing. Like say you're a trail runner and you're, or, or maybe a better example is a road biker, and you're scared of the downhills, you don't go on the steepest downhill that's super windy and really scary straight away, right?

You [00:51:00] build your confidence and you slowly expose yourself to steep, steeper and steeper hills, on your, on your bike. it, it's very easy in climbing to kind of overstress the nervous system and it doesn't even have to be something that happens to you. Like if you have an accident, this is something that can really stress your nervous system.

It can create fear memories, it can cause you to, um, be more scared when you go back to climbing next time. But, even just having friends who've had accidents, or hearing stories, or all of these things affect how we relate to the sports that we're doing. Um, and they can cause anxiety, cause a stress response.

So, It's kind of about navigating all of that really and there's not necessarily easy solutions But I think the first thing to really think about is to go how am I actually challenging myself in the sport? Am I under doing it where I like don't [00:52:00] challenge myself at all or am I overdoing it or am I getting it?

Just right and that's kind of like the start of fear management really is actually building the self awareness around, okay, how am I actually feeling in these moments? Am I going out and I'm scared shitless and I'm, and I'm terrified and I'm having a bad time and I come away and I'm like, oh, I don't know if I want to do that again, or am I going out and I'm bored?

Because it's not even that exciting for me anymore. Or am I going out and I'm having this really fun day where it's like a little bit scary, it's a little bit challenging, but I'm totally managing it. You know, and so just think, just reflecting on your experiences and going, okay, how can I, how can I challenge myself in the best way?

Mental training is the best way for you to progress as you get older. Because, yeah, you might still progress, be progressing physically, you might not be. But If you've never devoted [00:53:00] any time to mental training, then this is like a whole new world for you to explore. And some of the most satisfying clients that I've ever worked with have been older clients who have thought that they will never get better at the sport.

And then they learn how to fall, for example. They learn how to push themselves. And, you know, I worked with a woman last year who was 50. She climbed her hardest grades. Because she worked on her mental training, um, she was physically training as well. the thing that really made the difference was that she worked on her psychology.

So, I think that's the exciting place, if you're an old athlete, to explore that side of it. And you also just learn so much about yourself and it's just like a whole new world, I think. And it helps you in other areas of your life too, you know, physical training rarely kind of helps you, but like say you're still in your career and [00:54:00] you learn about stress and fear management, this could really help you in your professional life as well.

So I just think that there's so many benefits for it.

Kush: I also speak with, uh, many athletes who are in their fifties, sixties, and even older.

And some of them for sure are, are gifted. They are performing at the highest levels, but many of them did not hit their peaks until those ages. So I am curious, are there any other, let's say, self limiting beliefs that you, people come to you with that you have helped 

process and help them break through. 

Hazel: Yeah, there's lots of self limiting beliefs for sure. and you know, one of them can just be around age. It can be. I'm too old to improve. I'm too old to, to push my body like that, and coaching is a really nice space to explore some of those beliefs and kind of challenge [00:55:00] them. and I think that it can be easy or, you know, I don't really like this approach of like, just, Believe you can do anything or like, you know, just turn it around and just, you know, it, it's not that easy.

Um, I know it's not that easy for people to just turn these beliefs around, but I think the coaching space can be really nice. what this makes me think of is something called growth mindset, which maybe you and your listeners have heard of. And it's this idea that like. We're not fixed, we often can feel very fixed about certain things about ourselves, you know, I'll never be a brave climber.

I'll never be the best whatever. Um, and some of that's founded in some kind of evidence, but a lot of the time it's not. And what about just saying Okay, this is a weakness of mine, but I'm working on it. You know, I have weaknesses in climbing. One of them is [00:56:00] raw power. And I can easily slip into this fixed mindset of like, oh, I'm not a very powerful climber, I'll never be powerful, but what if I were to say to myself, and you know, this is, this is what I work on, is saying, okay, I'm, power is one of my weaknesses.

But I'm working on it, you know, and so it's taking ownership around these things. And if you don't, if you have a fixed mindset, you don't take responsibility, you don't take ownership. So when someone says, I'm too old to do this, immediately they're closed off from different avenues of exploration, different solutions, different ways of actually improving.

that are available to them. Whereas if you say, okay, I'm getting a bit older now, some things are more challenging, but I can work on this and I can, there's other ways that I can grow and learn and, and maintain and stay [00:57:00] fit and stay active. And I'm dedicated to that. So, you know, a lot of mental training can just be around some of these mindset shifts as well that sound really simple, but actually can be extremely powerful.

Kush: Uh, powerful indeed and being self aware and strategic and then maybe to some degree, um, performing some self compassion. can help as well because I think many of us who find that we can maybe we're feeling more challenged finding peak performance can sometimes come away dejected where maybe your trading session or your day outside wasn't actually that badly spent because you did maybe accomplish, uh, you did ABC things [00:58:00] that one might be ignoring because one, you know, was so singularly focused on some other, other aspect of performance.

Hazel: We can always climb our limit. Like I, I am seven months pregnant and today I climbed at my limit. I climbed a six C down at the climbing gym on a top rope. Usually this is a grade I warm up on.

Okay, I don't, it doesn't matter if you don't know what that means, right? It doesn't, it's, it's, it's about the factors relative. Usually I would, I would warm up on this grade, but today it was my limit and I enjoyed it because it was my limit. Is it my peak? No, it's so far from my peak. So, I think it's about reframing, just because, okay, maybe you're in your 60s and in your 20s, you climb two grades harder, but the feeling of the climb is the same.

So we can still [00:59:00] climb to our limit. We can climb to our physical, capacity at that time, our physical and mental capacity, I should say. Um, but that's not the peak. And I think if we let go of the, if we let go of some of these outcomes, if we let go of, of like, I'm not doing very well because I've not climbed this grade, or I'm getting worse at the grades that I'm climbing, and actually come back to how we feel when we climb, the experience that we have, or like if you're a runner, okay, in your 20s, maybe you could run for like four hours.

in the mountains or whatever, um, and now if you do that you have to walk some of the way and your time is like, you know, you can't go as far, you can only go half as far, but when you're running you're still feeling those endorphins, you're still outside, you're still pushing yourself, you know, you're [01:00:00] still, you're still challenging yourself, so all of the kind of Reasons why you do that sport.

They're still alive and well, even if you can't say, okay, I beat my time or I'm just as fast as I am now as I was when I was in my 20s. So, so much of aging is about your mindset.

Kush: Sure. 

Hazel: I 

Kush: you can share with us, with the listeners, Hazel, on how people can stay more present and experience that joy, that ephemeral joy of finding your limit at that moment of your life?

Hazel: the biggest thing is, is, well, I mean, there's obviously lots of things you can do to be more [01:01:00] present and train being present and mindfulness and meditation are the obvious, um, places to go. But one thing I would say is I would say, what is it that's preventing you from being present and finding joy in these activities?

that are recreational. You know, I imagine that most of your listeners are not paid to go running or surfing or hiking or climbing. These are activities that they probably spend a lot of time and money on. enabling themselves to do, right? They probably take time out of their jobs or their families or other things in their life because they really enjoy those activities.

And isn't it sad that it's not coming easy to us to find joy in them, right? Why is that? And I think that, um, Some of the main reasons are when we make [01:02:00] comparisons to others, or we make comparisons to previous versions of ourselves. you know, when we, when we step out, when we start focusing on what I would call extrinsic motivators, you know, things that motivate us that are outside of the task itself, that are independent from the task itself.

So If you feel like that to you, come back to what I would call intrinsic motivators, where we're motivated by the experiences we're having when we're actually doing the task. And again, coming back to the reasons why, why you go climbing or why you go running. Is it to be the best runner in the world? No, it's probably not, right?

It's probably because you just love 

Kush: quick habits of doing exactly that, that can help remind us, is there a meditation practice of [01:03:00] sorts that you recommend? Do you recommend that people start maybe writing down these thoughts somewhere? What, what do you 

think works for

Hazel: yeah, um, I think a really nice place to start if you're like totally new to this would be to create a journal and we often track our training, physical training, but we literally just write down like what we did and we write down our metrics and things like that and I think that can often take us away from the actual experience.

So creating, having a journal with like some prompts like you know, okay, okay, uh, how was the experience? Um, what state of mind was I in, or, you know, what thoughts and emotions came up for me today? Um, or what did I learn? You know, these, these kinds of prompts can be really powerful. Um, and you just start like a, a journal around that.

and then checking in with yourself as well [01:04:00] to get, um, kind of like, you know, an internal take. What's going on for you? And so just asking yourself two questions. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? before and after every task, um, can be a good habit. So that's kind of more on the self-awareness stuff.

And then in terms of kind of like being more positive, being more present. asking yourself, why am I here can just be really powerful before you start a task. Um, what's my intention, you know, for the session rather than just kind of going through the motions of the physical exercise and what's my intention.

Um, is it to enjoy myself? Is it to be present? Is it to beat my last week's time? If it's to beat my last week's time, why is it to beat that, to do, to do that? Why, why is it that I wanna do that? and, and then having some like maybe mantras, which are just sort of short phrases that can kind of trigger [01:05:00] cue or re remind yourself of certain things.

you know, like maybe one is like, I'm here to learn or. Um, I'm here to find joy be present, you know, just little, like little things that are like personal to you. It's not for me to kind of come up with them, but they're just suggestions. Um, they can be quite powerful as well. And you can write them down, you know, like if you forget, you can have a reminder on your phone, you can write them on your fridge, you can have it as your screensaver, you know, there's ways of sort of visually reminding yourself of these things.

Kush: Timmy O'Neill is a world class rock climber, slackliner, and adventure athlete known for his humor, storytelling, and humanitarian work. He spent Decades seeking adventure in remote and wild places, but unlike the stereotype of extreme athletes having a dead fish, [01:06:00] Timmy describes his drive as a live fish. I've heard of you speak of finding life ish instead of death ish because, yeah, when you go on big adventures with high risk of catastrophic injuries or worse, a lot of people might think that you might have a death ish.

Instead, you speak of this life ish. So, What do you mean by life ish?

Timmy: I mean, I think language is really powerful, right? We use language to define who we are. We use language to help others understand ourselves and the way that we fit into the world. So when people say, Oh, they must have a death wish if they go and have these experiences in these places, that isn't the case for me.

I could say that, [01:07:00] um, there's a much greater fear of not living than there is of dying and going to these places. There's a much greater risk for me, it feels, to stay away from climbing, paddling, and being able to have these pursuits in a lack of meaning and connection in my life. And I find that really important. You need to be self centered in life, right? Like everyone needs to be at the center of their existence, right? So if you're at the center of your existence, it's important that you can navigate from there. You don't drive from the passenger seat. You drive from the driver's seat. And I think what's important about being self centered is having a center that allows space, ample space for family and friends and community around that center. So my center resides [01:08:00] in these remote places, pursuing these wild ideas with equally wild people. On our terms. 

Kush: Let me ask you this question. Timmy, you go and speak with, interact with, and inspire many people outside the core climbing community, if you may. And I am curious for the everyday person, maybe even the everyday active athlete who may not be into remote adventuring, maybe not even do rock climbing or adventure sports for that matter.

How can they find this life fish in their own lives?

Timmy: I think for me, climbing is about [01:09:00] movement. More importantly, it's also about mindset because when you go in problem solve and have division of duties and create teams and you're involved with the sort of crux assessing around different objective aspects, you're learning so much. About that experience, but you can take that suite of tools, that mindset and apply it to anything in your life. So a life wish to me is about not, hey, let's have a party and just feel good. It's about let's purposely make decisions in our lives that lead us to our best version of ourselves. Right. And for me, that's going to be climbing, as we've mentioned, but it's also going to be playing music, deeply reading, having a sense of play that is eternal and so profound.

It informs [01:10:00] almost everything I do. And my life wish then allows me to have a self center. That I can share, right? Catch and release. Like you caught it, now release it back into the world, right? So, if I'm living the best version of myself, and I'm so full of life and love, and that doesn't mean I'm not full of the other bad stuff. All the negative or opposites, right? It just means that I'm going to be purposefully seeking to have the best version of myself and the best mindset so I can show up in my life and in the lives of those around me in the best way.

I have a dear friend, Quinn Brett, and Quinn and I climbed the nose in a day to raise funds for Paradox Sports years ago. She would eventually be climbing El Capitan, be injured in a fall, and become paralyzed from [01:11:00] the waist down. Right about at the same place on her spinal cord that my brother is injured. Quinn gave me this really valuable insight. And Quinn will go into A store and open the doors with her wheelchair and make her way through and somebody will come up and go, you're so inspiring and they're objectifying her and hallmarkifying her and it feels bad to have that happen to an individual. I know this because Quinn tells me. So now Quinn, instead of feeling bad and instead of getting pissed off or becoming embittered, she says, thank you. What do I inspire you to do? And that underscores fundamental truth. In human life, in human nature, that we can feel something, but what we do with that feeling, that next purposeful part is so key. How we frame the perspective we create. The ideas that we [01:12:00] conjure and curate, but then how we apply those in our lives. That's the fundamental, capital T truth, is if you feel inspired, how do you apply it? If you feel that you want to create a best version of yourself, what are the steps that you take to do that? And again, it's imperfect, it's impermanent, it's not exactly the science per se, it can be messy. And it's going to require trial and error. It's going to require a failure. And again, having what happens to you, not become you or what you choose to become. 

Kush: Yuri Soledad is not only one of the most respected big wave surfers at Jaws, but he's also a highly respected. Successful entrepreneur running multiple restaurants. How does someone balance the mental and physical demands of tackling 60 foot waves with managing a business empire? [01:13:00] Let's find out. you have been performing at the highest levels with Big wave surf, which requires just, you know, incredible preparation, but you've also managed to start from the ground up and succeed at being an entrepreneur in the food and restaurant industry, one of the most difficult industries with the highest failure rates.

And now you continue expanding. So I'm sure it's not the easiest to boil it down into, you know, one or two, sentences, but what has been some of your secrets that we can learn from Yuri and being able to juggle all these things?

Yuri: . So it's a, it's a good question. there's two answers to that question, right? the first one is on a personal level. which is, um, to me, I think you, you have to stay in the moment [01:14:00] and, you know, I have such a different lives being an entrepreneur and also as a surfer or even as a father or even as a friend that, um, for me, I think the secret is to be focused a hundred percent on the moment.

right? Whenever I'm at work, I'm at work. I don't get distracted. I'm there for a reason, and my job is to make sure, you know, we're, we're serving the best meal possible, that I'm taking care of my over 300 employees. And word, the best, um, experience that, you know, either, because there's two restaurants, three restaurants now.

It's Paia Fish Market, uh, Nuka Sushi, is a sushi bar in Haiku on the north side of Maui. And then now with the new operation, which is Uno Fish Market, in Uluwatu, Bali. So anyways, to me, it's all about being present [01:15:00] and focus 100%. So whenever I'm with I work, I'm at work. Whenever I'm surfing, I'm surfing. I'm 100 percent there.

I'm 100 percent committed. No matter if the wave is one foot or it's a hundred foot. Whenever I'm with my family, I'm giving my soul attention to them. And I try not to get distracted by all the things that is around me. It's either, you know, it could be even work or the desire to be surfing when I'm at work or whatever it may be.

And, and I think that's been the secret. It's to be present. and then, and then answering the other part of the question is that I, I was very lucky to be in the situation that I was when I first started out at the Paia Fish Market. The guy, because I didn't create the fish market, right? Uh, it was a guy, his name was Warren Roberts.

He created, uh, along with my [01:16:00] business partners right now, especially Moonstar Green, that, uh, they created something so unique, uh, on the way we do things. And then, of course, I brought in the whole idea of, treat the restaurant as a family and make sure that, uh, uh, all my employees somehow they're a part of, of the outcome.

If we do, you know, bad or good, you know, like we, we work on with goals, you know, like every time everybody reaches a certain goal, we give them a daily bonus. If they reach a second goal, there's a second bonus. If we break the record or if we achieve a third goal, there's even a third bonus. You know, we, we give them, as much as I can because I, I truly believe we're just as good as I have the people working for me.

you know, and then every, like, I got the opportunity to become part owner [01:17:00] of the original one, right? So every time I open a, another location, We always give the opportunity, uh, for some of the guys that being on the trenches that work really hard, they understand the business or they have something special to become part owners as well.

So that way, uh, they're, they're constantly giving their hundred percent. And me and my business partner, we kind of oversee it and bring the culture, the knowledge, to be able to succeed. And nowadays our restaurants, every single one of them, there's a line out the door from the moment we open to the moment we close.

Like the Bali one, uh, we just opened, four months ago and it's already like, Pretty much the biggest success case in body. Uh, you know, it's like a line out the door, people, even though we already had a history here in Hawaii, but you know, to actually change to a different country, to adapt the, the concept and, [01:18:00] you know, to find the ingredients to, to keep the freshness, like you said, you know, uh, getting the fresh, Fresh fish.

We had to really try and control the quality of the fish from the moment that is getting caught on the boat all the way to my door. And that's always been the secret, something that my parents instigated me way back in the day. when I first took over the fish market, you know, I was just a young kid.

coming from, from Brazil, when I first arrived here, I could not speak one word of English. And then within five years, six years, um, I already owned the restaurant. You know, so for me, it was, it was very challenging, but I had to, create a way where, um, people believed in me, not only my partners, uh, which I knew that they knew that I had something, you know, special and unique.

But I also, I had to, [01:19:00] to make every single one of my employees believe in me. And a lot of them, they've been working for a lot longer at the restaurant. They, you know, they're from America. Um, they had a lot more knowledge. And then here comes this kid. And then I said, everybody had a meeting and I was like, you know what, guys, from now on, things are going to change.

You know, you guys buying me to, to my idea. we're going to be extremely successful. I believe on the concept. I believe on the restaurant, even though we're not doing well right now, but we're going to do well. And then, uh, and that day I ended up giving a raise to everybody and my partners thought I was crazy.

And then she's like, Oh my gosh, we're barely making any money. We're barely breaking even. And you're already giving a raise to everyone. And I was like, no, that's how it's going to be. Because, uh, you know, with fresh fish, fish is so expensive that you never going to make by selling very little. You only going to [01:20:00] make by selling at a super high volume.

And then where are we going to make the money? It's on the drinks, you know, on the beer, on the soda, on the French fries. for actually the piece of fish that we serve, a lot of times, I'm actually paying for the customer to eat that fish burger because it costs so much, but because, you know, there's a line out the door, we're able to fish, uh, cooks super fast, right?

And then we're able to pump it out so much throughout the whole entire day that where I'm making the money, it's on the extra things. you know, and that was something that I, I believed I already knew it from, from the numbers. I believed on, on providing the best, uh, product available. My parents always told me like, look, uh, if you're going to sell fresh fish, which they did it at the time back in Brazil, when I was young, my father would go to the market and it would be talking to the fishermen and it'd be like, look, we [01:21:00] only sell fresh fish.

I'm going to take care of you and then you give me the best fish available. Like every time when the fish comes in, you separate the best fish because I want to be competing against 10 other big checks along the beach, but I want to be known by being the best, uh, the freshest fish available. And that was something that I did here.

So I went right when I bought the restaurant, I went to the distributors, to the fishermen, I brought them a case of beer and I was like, look guys, from now on, you know, I'm just like another guy. Uh, luckily I got the opportunity to become an owner of this restaurant, but I need you guys help. Like I'm not going to succeed and I'm not going to be able to buy it from you.

Unless you help me out. Most of the restaurants, they're selling, you know, chicken, meat, they have so many other items. I only sell fresh fish. So I need to be the best quality on the whole entire island. So you help me out, I'll help you [01:22:00] out, I'll make sure that I'll take care of you, I'll give you some gifts, I'll bring you a piece of beer, uh, you know, I'll bring you some shirts or whatever, but I need your help because otherwise I'm not gonna succeed.

I have two kids at home. you know, uh, young kids. My wife was actually pregnant when I, uh, off the second kid. Cause I already had a kid. She already had a kid from before. And, and I knew that it was going to be my only chance. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to do whatever it takes for this restaurant to succeed.

I'm going to do whatever I can on my power. And there's no other way around this thing is going to succeed. It comes back to that faith that we talked about it where like somehow I still believe that I was putting on this work on this earth to actually, uh, surf and push the big waves and, and show people that it was possible.

Same thing with the Russian I really believe that, uh, I was put [01:23:00] in to actually start over there as a dishwasher to change that restaurant around and to give people an opportunity. and to help people succeed. And I wanted to succeed not only for myself, but for my family and for all the people that depend on me.

And there was no way that I was, allowed the bat to fail. You know, I was going to do whatever it took to succeed. And luckily it did. And nowadays, you know, we have like extremely successful restaurant. Everybody knows about the fish market. Or sushi bar. Um, I just took Marcus from Surfline, um, yesterday to a dinner there.

And then I was telling him, I was like, look, every day there's like a two hour, today there's a two and a half hour wait and people go from all over the island. to go to Nuka and wait, two and a half hours to eat there because the quality is there. And, and that's always been [01:24:00] the secret.

Kush: Catherine Hayes was part of the pioneering movement that pushed for greater accessibility in outdoor sports. She helped create opportunities for disabled athletes long before the ADA. Made accessibility a legal requirement. So then let's say you found a job with the, uh, adaptive ski industry. And then you started, Teaching more and more people. I'm guessing you also went through some training. Tell us a little bit about what that process was like. You have now been doing this for a few decades now. Was there a point where you started teaching and like, were you still gushing over that experience?

Did you, did you find that?

Katherine: you know, I, [01:25:00] it's kind of like being a woman before me, too.

So, uh, this is all before the ADA in 1991 and, and supposedly equal access for people. So the ski areas and in general, the park system were very resistant to, uh, Equal access because of the additional cost and they didn't like us showing up at their ski area with a sit down apparatus or amputee with, uh, to what we call outriggers crutches with skis or blind people that, you know, we were kind of messing up their. And just by

Kush: uh,

Katherine: sheer perseverance and, uh, hard headedness, those of us early people, we were like, we're not going away. You can't make us leave. These people have as much right as anybody [01:26:00] else. To recreate and be outside in public spaces, you know, and there was quite a bit of prejudice, you know, uh, I mean, you've even seen it in national politics where people in high office make fun. Uh, people with disabilities, quite shocking that it still happens in this day and age, uh, and it happened a lot in the 70s and 80s. So by, I think it was mid 80s, we had formalized our training and were certified, had created a certification. a process for instructors of people with, uh, ski instructors, just like the Professional Ski Instructors Association, of which I've been a proud member for 41 years. Um, they're a national organization with, uh, many, many members all over the country. they recognized adaptive, as a [01:27:00] discipline. I believe it was 1985 and that was like, holy cow, we're in. we we actually have some legitimacy, at least in the ski teaching profession. So, I have to say that, uh, the prejudice and discrimination that we experienced in, uh, for me, I mean, the guys from the Rat Pack where I experienced it, Since they got back from Vietnam, so I just came in in the late 70s and 80s and it was quite shocking And I like to think that today people have a much more open attitude towards people with Disability diagnosis at all the ski areas in at least the Lake Tahoe Basin

Kush: And sorry, what is, did you say Rat Pack? Oh,

Katherine: so they were the original group of Vietnam veterans who formed the The, uh, [01:28:00] first chapter of Disabled Sports and my old boss, Doug Pringle, uh, he's the guy that got it started and then they went, it just went national. It's like, Oh, look what those people in Lake Tahoe are doing. Let's form a, let's form a program out here in, uh, Ohio.

Let's form a program in New York. And it just kind of spread like wildfire. It was crazy. That's

my best description. It was crazy, crazy, crazy times,

Kush: Oh, amazing. I,

Katherine: all over the country and gave clinics and started programs everywhere. And it was just a crazy time

Kush: amazing. I had no idea that perhaps the, the rise of adaptive sports had this connection to war veterans from Vietnam. Sounds like America had like this ill fated, uh, experience in [01:29:00] Asia, but it gave rise to In this funny way to the opening of the doors and access to the outdoors for the disabled. 

Katherine: And there was a lot of people involved all along the way. I mean, even before. Uh, Doug and the Rat Pack, uh, started things in 1960, early 60s, basically, when everybody had come back, you know, they, uh, Bob, uh, Guerrero and Doug Pringle were recruited from Letterman's Hospital in San Francisco, where they were recovering from their war wounds.

So, you know, before that, there had been some, uh, People that had made adaptive equipment and we're doing small things like in Ohio and Austria But I I lay claim to the fame of being part of this original chapter The rat pack the the group that started it all.

Kush: This [01:30:00] person who was your first student, was she also a war veteran?

Katherine: No, she had macular degeneration so she had a Progressive eye disorder.

Kush: Got it. The reason that this program became available to her was because this program was started as a, uh, offshoot of the Rat Pack being.

Katherine: Well, right. Bob Guerrero was an offshoot of the Rat Pack, and he also worked at the Reno Rehabilitation Center or Services for the Blind. So because he had this background in teaching adaptive skiing, he was a natural fit for the clients from Services for the Blind.

Kush: Thank you for, uh, clarifying that. The other part that I. Perhaps gleaned from what you said was [01:31:00] the ADA, you know, which hasn't been around for as long as one would imagine. The evolution of the ADA also has something to do with the access to the outdoors for the disabled. Sounds like not only did you Create a legacy of teaching people how to recreate in the outdoors, but you also may have had this contribution to the passing and the, uh, the sheer proofing of access for the disabled in this country.

Oh,

Katherine: that were involved with the original chapter from the Rat Pack, they were part of the, the group that went to Washington, D. C. and really pushed for it, you know? And [01:32:00] just because a law passed, like the ADA, doesn't mean people like it. So the struggle has been to get people to accept willingly, adaptive athletes. Without the law being forced upon them, you know, I mean, there was a lawsuit against, uh, Squaw Valley a long time ago because they refused access to a couple of wheelchair gals that had gone through our program as skiers and they were refused access to the tram. Uh, because they were disabled and disabled people, and this was in the summer.

It wasn't even in the winter. So the owner at that time was on TV saying disabled people have no right to be on a ski hill.

Kush: wow.

Katherine: it was just the wrong political time for him to say that. And that would never happen at Palisades [01:33:00] Tahoe. Now, because they're so accepting, they support our programs, they've made things very accessible and welcoming. And so, it's a whole different ballgame now, but back then, not so much. 

Kush: Marshall Ulrich is an ultra running legend, known for completing some of the world's toughest endurance challenges, including multiple crossings of Death Valley's Badwater ultramarathon.

But one race left him with an experience he will never forget. Let's hear him talk about it. Can you describe a moment when you were running across the landscape at Badwater when the raw beauty or let's say the sheer magnitude of the landscape, you know, [01:34:00] it overwhelmed you and, and maybe how that experience impacted you and your ability to keep pushing your body through its apex? 

Marshall: you know, of course I talked about the stars and stuff like that, and what that does is it sort of motivates you, it, uh, you know, just, it, it feels like you're a part of nature and it's kind of a dichotomy because You feel like you're a part of nature, but then on the other hand, you feel like you're just a little speck in the universe also, which I've always enjoyed feeling that, like you're something very insignificant, but you're out there doing something that you feel in yourself that you're doing that is significant. So there's that part of it where you sort of connect with the environment, connect with the, you know, just, you know, there's the stars out there. There's, uh, [01:35:00] you know, the pounding of your feet and just the sounds that are associated with it, or the lack of sound is that is associated with that being out in the. complete solitude, quiet of the desert, there's one instance that I had, uh, or experience that I had out in Badwater, and, let's see, I'm, I'm trying to think I was, I was actually being quiet. Um, I was actually being crude and it was during the race.

I'm trying to think back, but it was between, um, starting the race and about 30, 40 miles into it. the sun had set in front of me and I was running toward Mount Whitney. And, uh, I can remember running during the night and it got to the point where I was so [01:36:00] mesmerized. almost disconnected with my own body to where. I actually experienced, and you know, this is going to sound just really weird, and you know, I'll kind of, um, qualify this later, uh, in my explanation, but I had an out of body experience, and honest to God, this happened. And, you know, about 30 miles into it, I see that sun go down in front of me, and it seemed like it was a matter of 10 or 15 minutes. And, you know, my crew was going in and out, giving me water, doing stuff. They disappear in the distance. So I had an awareness of that, but it was secondary. but I was flying over myself, watching myself run. And I was running effortlessly and the sun comes up behind me, I'm 50 [01:37:00] miles down the road and it's almost like I couldn't even figure out how I got there because the night had disappeared and that whole time it was more of, you know, talk about a spiritual experience.

It was just more of an out of body experience. So that happened, and I don't think I've ever so deeply connected with myself and the environment and that relationship. Where the two of them exist in that same space until, do you know who Yannis Kouros is, who is, you know, he holds all these magnificent records, uh, for 48 hours.

He's the Greek and, you know, he, um, he still holds world records. Multiple world records. He came to Boulder and, um, I had the privilege of, uh, going to breakfast with him and I was talking to him and I said, Giannis, uh, because I mean, [01:38:00] this guy's, I mean, he is, he's cut out of a way different mold than a lot of people. You know, a lot of his records still exist, uh, ultra records, like six day things, you know, 600, I can't even remember, 40, 50 miles, whatever. But I asked him about that, I said, this is gonna sound, just like I said to you, really corny. And I said, I was out in the desert, I told him the same story that I just told you. And you know what he said? He said, you know what? It happens all the time to me. And I said, you gotta be kidding me. He said, no, you know how I get there? And I said, no, don't you tell me. He said, you just have to squeeze everything out of you until there's nothing left. And then you get into this space where you can go there. So this guy does it regularly or did it regularly. And it's always puzzled me how he could do [01:39:00] that. And I'm not sure he could explain it other than what he just told me. You just have to. You know, kind of get outside of yourself and you could do more and the one thing I noticed because I went back and I looked at some of his times and his pace and you could see right when that happened because he'd start running faster, you know, 100 miles down the road or whatever.

He'd start running faster. you know, it was fascinating to have this conversation, and he's the only other person that I've, has acknowledged that, so anyhow, yeah, that's, that's kind of my story, but it was, you know, quite, quite extraordinary, and what I kept doing was going out to Badwater to see if I could duplicate that, and I never could.

I, I've crossed the valley now 31 times, and I've never been able to do it again. It was like a fleeting moment.

Kush: Lynn Hill [01:40:00] is one of the greatest climbers of all time. Most famous for being the first person, male or female, to free climb the nose on El Capitan in California's Los Angeles. Here she takes us back to the early days of sport climbing, the skepticism she faced and how her ability to blend strength, endurance and mental fortitude changed the sport forever. Can you help us understand, Lin, did you do that was so particularly remarkable groundbreaking for its time? 

Lynn Hill: So At that time period, there was not a lot of interest in sport climbing by a lot of the traditionalists here in this country. When I went to France and discovered the [01:41:00] competitions and the limestone, my whole world opened up because it was something I really enjoyed. And I knew that it was kind of controversial. in America. So one of the first cliffs that was developed with bolts was in Smith Rocks. And, and when we say old school crag, it has a lot of meaning. But what it means in, in the case of Smith Rocks is they tried to make the bolts really far apart. So that they were a little bit scary so that the traditionalist wouldn't call you a lightweight or whatever because you had bolts, you know, it's, they, they conceived, you know, sport climbing as something that was too safe or something, you know, Oh, yeah, that you're not risking anything. So, you know, sometimes like this one. Um, the latest rage, you have to stand out for, for the first bolt and climb up a little bit just to get to the first bolt and if you fall, it's a, it's quite a fall. It's like 35 feet to the ground, you know, because you go down this hillside. So people now have stick clips and they, you know, [01:42:00] have found ways around it.

But the point being here is that. I discovered sport climbing knowing that a lot of the people and in the areas that I'd grown up climbing in Southern California, Yosemite, um, that they didn't have that same viewpoint. They didn't have that experience of what you could actually do on, you know, cutting edge level climbs.

So back there or back then I did my first 514 in France because we didn't have 514 in America. So. people didn't understand what was possible. So I feel like my experiences over there in Europe, learning how to compete on, you know, when they call your name, you go out and compete. So you have to be ready and you have to be vulnerable and willing to put yourself on the line.

You have to be willing. I don't like the word fail, but you might fall and you have to accept. But whatever you did, you tried your hardest and don't get too distracted. In fact, I [01:43:00] was actually encouraged by the crowd clapping. It made me climb better, I think. I mean, it's nerve wracking to be performing in front of people, but you get used to that too. So when you're on the big stage of climbing in Yosemite, you could feel nervousness about, you know, your performance. So that I think was helpful as well as obviously knowing how to climb hard routes by 14. Like I said, the difficulty has to do with the size of the holds, the distance between the holds and how awkward the climbing is and overall how strenuous it is.

And so I was able to combine my background and as a traditionalist, as a traditional style climber, and the sport climbing, and put that together on things like the Changing Corners. and the last pitch, which is kind of an interesting, more, you know, um, physical overhanging kind of climbing. And so you have to have the [01:44:00] ability to crack climb and rope management, all the logistics of hauling your gear and everything else. And you have to be able to climb at a high level, about 2, 500 feet off the ground. The Great Roof is almost 2, 000 feet off the ground. So you also have to be efficient. You can't waste energy. Even if you're strong, I've seen a lot of people that are, they're super strong and they, they're actually their own worst enemy because they don't know how to relax, they'll just, and they'll try too hard and, and then they're just pumped, they're gassed, you know, after only a few moves, I saw that with people like, you know, even Ben Moon, who's the inventor of the moon board, he's a super strong climber, always has been, and still is actually, um, but he would get nervous and you could see he just like overpowered.

Moves that he didn't have to try that hard on, but you know, people's physiology, as you know, we discussed earlier, um, understanding muscle types. I now understand, of course, that he has [01:45:00] more fast push muscle fiber and he's set up for powerful climbs. He's not an endurance guy, whereas that's the opposite.

I am more of an endurance climber and an endurance athlete. I did other sports, you know, before I got into climbing, like as a kid I was a swimmer and, um, in order to win prize money for something that wasn't really climbing related, but I got invited by a famous woman climber named Beverly Johnson, who was one of my role models in Yosemite, and she invited me to join her.

to this televised competition, and I realized that they had some running events in it. And I was not a runner. I was a rock climber. Rock climbers don't do anything but hike. I mean, we put packs on our back and hike up hills, but it's a lot different than running. So I, you know, learned about running and how to train, you know, for endurance and, and how to peak before a competition and all that kind of stuff.

So that was useful. Um, so I put basically all of [01:46:00] my skills of climbing for, I think at that point it was 20 some years. And, um, the route that I chose was probably the most famous big wall climb in the world. El Cavitan is the biggest formation in Yosemite and it's right there. You can walk to the base in 20 minutes. Um, so, you know, the tourists will drive down the road and just usually look, or they'll stop and park and walk out into the meadow and use binoculars or just look at the specs of climbers on the wall. for me, growing up, especially in California, Yosemite was, Always just a special place. It's one of the most beautiful natural wonders that I've seen in the world and I loved going on camping trips and, you know, I loved the nature of just being outside and camping, but when I came to Yosemite through that Wawona Tunnel the first time and just, you see El Cap for the first time, it was just mind blowing.

It has a great significance in our [01:47:00] history and also just the whole story of the development of the gear and the vision, the golden era climbers, you know, that was a big, big thing to try to do a first ascent up that wall because nobody was able to really rescue them then. I mean, if they got stuck because they were in uncharted territory, like maybe they got stuck and they couldn't get back down or, you know, who's going to rescue them? Maybe the handful of climbers that were their friends were the only people that could conceivably rescue them. But fortunately climbers are very, um, inventive and they've, found ways of managing themselves and bringing the gear up with all the equipment that they had. Sometimes, you know, those hemp ropes that weren't all that good, not like our nice nylon, you know, stretchy ropes.

They, um, They had to leave a lot of gear on the wall just to get their supplies up. And, um, and they figured it out. So [01:48:00] I think it's amazing to consider that history. And, uh, a lot of the climbers of my generation who were more focused on being able to free climb the big walls or free climb anything, it actually wasn't such a big, uh, push to, to free climb big walls back then.

But, um, the nose was an obvious challenge that people would like to do. You know, some of the locals like John Backer, Ron Kauk, um, even European climbers came over to try to do it. Many people tried to free climb the nose but couldn't do it. You know, it's intimidating. And so, I, I think it's very psychological as well. Cause, you know, it's different if you go to a 100, 200 foot cliff versus, you know, you know, something that's 3000 feet. It starts feeling, you know, much different for a challenge. And so, I feel like I was also fortunate that I was able to focus on climbing as [01:49:00] my full time, you know, career, so to speak, but, um, passion more than anything. And, um, you have to have the time and the willingness to put a lot of work into it. And, and also, um, not succeed. And, and you have to be willing to accept that too. And if I had gone into this project saying I must do it, I probably wouldn't have been successful. You know, my approach was I'm going to try my hardest.

It's a valiant effort. I'm going to do what I can. And it didn't work the first time. I had to come back a second time. Um, I got stopped at the changing corners. I didn't realize how hard that was going to be. And I went away from the valley. I went to, you know, Idaho where my mom and, um, her husband had a place and had a little vacation.

I thought, you know what? That pitch is going to go free. I know it's, it's got to. So I went, I called my friend, Brooke Sandel. who had put some time into figuring out that key section. [01:50:00] And he found a variation that, you know, you can do a variation on that pitch. It goes to the left of the corner. but I, I this corner should have the and the opposition possibilities.

And I was right, it did. And actually, I'm unusually small. I, I've been shrinking a little bit. I, I never made it to 5'2 but I'm, I'm now about 5'1 and so a person that's 5'1 um, can fit inside the corner and basically use the, the pin scars. If you're taller, most, you know, normal sized people can use the arete and put their feet on the other side of the wall, which At a weird angle, so it feels very slippery.

You can't really push flat against the wall, so you're, you

have to really be careful about how you place your feet. But in any case, when people said that, oh, Lenny could do it because she had such small fingers. They were referring to the crack underneath the great roof, which is thin. [01:51:00] True. But if you're small, you can't reach as far. It's really awkward when you have something that's underneath a roof that you have to have your feet against the face in front of you, and you're pulling out almost more than anything else on, on these little tiny openings in the crack. So being small or being tall, you have to find your own way. And so it's not, you know, what your body size is that's going to determine it. It's how creative you are. In being able to use your body in the best way. Sure. 

[01:52:00] [01:53:00]