#66 Mastering Momentum: How Ned Overend Still Wins at 70, Avoids Injury, and Stays Strong Without a Coach or Gym Routine

Ageless Athlete - Ned Overend
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Ned: [00:00:00] I'm in Durango, Colorado it's where my wife and I live. We've lived here for 45 years, I think. We have a house in Fountain Hills, Arizona. So we spend about two months of the year down there uh, the rest of the time up here. So, but I am in Durango right now and we have about a foot of snow outside and it's 38 degrees.

So, So typical February in Durango. ~for breakfast, I had, start out my day with two tablespoons of olive oil and a large cup of coffee. And then I also usually have, uh, avocado toast to get started. And then later on, uh, my breakfast will like include, um, usually eggs or sometimes, sometimes, uh. oatmeal, different cereals with, you know, banana strawberries.~

Kush: ~Hey, Ned.~

Ned: ~Yes.~

Kush: ~Yeah. Sorry. I lost you there for a second. Uh,~

Ned: ~Well, your, your picture froze up. And, uh, so I don't know, is there something we can do to improve our reception?~

Kush: ~yes. Um, let's continue Uh, let's continue Uh where we left off and if this problem happens again, uh, I apologize. We will just switch to a different recording software~

Ned: ~Okay.~

Kush: ~So, can I ask you again? What did you have for breakfast?~

Ned: Uh, so I like to start off every morning with two tablespoons of olive oil. I love olive

Kush: Oh

Ned: drink a lot of olive oil throughout the day, but, and then I have, uh, usually avocado toast, but to me that, that starting off with two tablespoons of olive oil, I think it helps mute the insulin spike of, of, you know, having, uh, simpler carbohydrates for breakfast and I have it with a a cup of coffee and then like I said, I usually get, uh, right after that I have like avocado toast.

[00:01:00] Sometimes it's toast with jam, uh, I start off small and then, uh, Then I'll have, yeah, a little later after I have my coffee and stuff. I'll have maybe, uh, scrambled eggs on, on toast.

Kush: I have heard a few people talk about this, um, the benefits of olive oil. To start off, I like to cook most of my foods with olive oil, but when I go to the supermarket, I see this overwhelming array of different types of olive oil. So in your case, since you are, I guess, drinking the olive oil neat in the morning, what is your preferred type of oil to drink?

Ned: Well, I've, I've actually read a lot about the different types of olive oil and one that is highly rated is the, uh, the kind we get from Costco. I believe it's Kirtland. And,

Kush: Okay.

Ned: there's, there's some good information behind the quality of that and the quality control. So that's the, uh, the [00:02:00] type that, that we get.

And if you drink a lot of it, it can be expensive. So, so buying it almost in bulk like that, uh, works well for us.

Kush: Very cool. And Ned, I heard that you and your wife have lived in Durango for 45 years. Am I correct in assuming that you guys have been married or something like that for that long?

Ned: Yes, yes, we, uh, we got married in So, so

Kush: Wow.

Ned: long. 44 years, I guess. Oh,

Kush: this wonderful relationship? 

Ned: I have a joke I like to tell. When my kids were teenagers. know, it's very hard. You know, they were, they, they ran into some trouble spots. Our kids did. And, uh, it was [00:03:00] very frustrating and a, and a hard time in our lives. And I like to say that, you know, wanted to break up, my wife and I, except neither one of us would take the kids. we had to stay together. And now we've

Kush: a secret.

Ned: we've gotten through that, uh, that time in our lives. But I think, you know, you hear it a lot. It's about compromise and respecting each other and, and at times giving each other some space. You know, I've, I've done a lot of traveling and, uh. So there's there's times when my wife is looking forward to the next time that I'm traveling so that I'll get out of her hair

Kush: I love it. I love it, Ned. For those of us who don't know who you are, Ned, who are you and what do you do? 

Ned: well, I I am an employee at Specialized Bicycles, and I've been an employee [00:04:00] for Specialized for about 35 years and Starting around 1980 I was a car mechanic and a motorcycle mechanic, and I, and I was a also a mountain runner here in Durango. So like, like all runners, you know, I got injured and as all runners do at times, right?

So I turned to cycling was an accomplished mountain runner. But there wasn't much money in mountain running. So I, I didn't consider that I would ever make a career out of it. But when I started cycling, I'd started winning several races and, and cycling was actually something where you could get sponsorship and, and make a career of it. So, uh, I switched from being a mechanic to working in a bike shop where the owner of the shop was, was supporting me in, in. Uh, [00:05:00] trying to become a professional cyclist and during that time mountain bikes started being sold the market. And so, um, I had a, I had a history earlier, you know, as a motorcycle mechanic, I'd ridden motorcycles off road, done some motocross. mountain biking with, uh, my experience in road racing and having a history in mountain, in motocross, it was perfect for me. So I jumped in the Into mountain bike racing and was quite successful at it. Uh, first four years, starting in 84, I was sponsored by Schwinn in 88. I was picked up by Specialized and I've been with Specialized bicycles. since 88. So I had a long history in mountain bike racing. I won the first world mountain bike championships in 1990. I've won six, you know, national championships. And then went on after, in 96, [00:06:00] I retired from, mountain bike racing. I still mountain bike race, but I wouldn't, I didn't follow the world cup as my main focus. And I did some extra triathlon. uh, in extra triathlon, I, I, Who has, won two world championships in Maui in 88 and 89. And, uh, just done a variety of bike racing and off road triathlon. And, and here I am, I still do some racing. You know, I'll do some, uh, mountain bikes, some road racing, some gravel racing. I'm fortunate, I'm, sponsored, or I'm employed by Specialized in sports marketing. And product development. So I'm one of also one of their ambassadors. So really training and traveling to events and racing is kind of part of my job. And it's one of the reasons I've been able to sustain for so long, good fitness and, uh, [00:07:00] and a cycling career that goes in, I'm actually going to be 70 this year. August. So, uh, my racing age is, is now 70 cause your racing age is whatever you are at the end of the year. So 70 is considered my racing age. So that's a, that's a big year for me. That's a big milestone. 

Kush: Well, big milestone, Ned, and congratulations on truly an incredible career. And one of the things I sense about your life is It's just this long haul of consistency. You have been, you have been married, have lived in the same city and have been working for the same company all for close to five decades.

And yeah, I'm just wondering if, if this theme runs across in other [00:08:00] parts of your Just your, uh, life ethos of starting something and then sticking with it for a long time.

Ned: Well, I think the things you've, you've mentioned, you know, the, uh, living in Durango, I mean, Durango is a great place to live. And, uh, starting describing that a little bit. I mean, it's, it's a beautiful town. It's 6, 500 feet, which is a great training altitude, right? I mean, you can, can, you know, get thicker blood by training it at higher altitudes.

But it's harder to recover. And I, I think, you know, people who train at higher altitudes, uh, they lose something in their, in their fitness. Cause they don't have the oxygen to supply to their muscles, you know, in the intensity of training. uh, as far as the altitude of Durango, a lot of times I [00:09:00] travel down to lower altitudes to events. But, uh, 6, 500 feet I think, I think is a really good altitude to live and train at for, for, uh, athletic performance. The, uh, the town, it's got a river running through it, you know. And one thing I love to do and I, and I look forward to every summer is that I swim in the river. uh, I will actually, it's not for a long time, but it's, uh, you know, maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

I'll swim into a rapid, right? So I'll, I'll go for a ride earlier in the day. You know, it's hot. Might be 80 degrees. I'll jump in the river, swim into a rapid, you know, it's, like cross training, but it's refreshing. And it's, it's, it is actually one of the great joys of my life is swimming. the river.

So Durango has a lot of things going for it. You know, we, here, you can ride up to on the pavement, uh, an 11, 000 foot [00:10:00] passes on, on the pavement. The mountains around here, um, are 14, 000 foot peaks. And the San Juan Mountains has the highest concentration of 14, 000 foot peaks in, in the whole country. if you want to get a little warmer, um, Uh, environment. You just, you head south down to New Mexico and a lot of times in, uh, in the winter, I'll drive down south to New Mexico or over to, uh, Moab, Utah is only three hours from here. So Durango has been a great place and, and, know, like all people, we look for, Oh, where, where might we want to live? It's better and and for many years after we lived in Durango We explored other cities and stuff that we might want to move to and eventually we just gave up because we couldn't find any place That we liked, know as much as

Kush: Sure.

Ned: got it's got eight breweries in this town, right? So it's that kind of it's it's got great bike culture here [00:11:00] and Tremendous trails.

I've been part of the, the, you know, trail building and trail advocate organizations in Durango. So, and we're continuing to build more trails. So, so it's got a lot of things going for it. So we're very fortunate to, uh, to have, have been here. And, and if we, you know, the winners, you know, as my wife and I get older, they're a little bit long for us. So we've, uh, my daughter lives in, in Scottsdale. So, um, So we will spend a couple of months of the winter down there to kind of, to kind of break it up a little bit. I mean, I like winter sports, Nordic skiing and, uh, stuff like that. But the winters can be a little long and I like to stay in cycling shape year round now. it's, it's, it's more difficult in the winter. You know, I, I

Kush: Sure.

Ned: a lot of clothes and, and, uh, ride generally if it gets over 38 degrees, you know, sometimes 35, you know, out on the road. But it's. It's cold when [00:12:00] you're doing that. You can dress right, but it's still hard to be out there that long. And then

Kush: Sure.

Ned: indoor training with, with a smart trainer as well.

Kush: Well, you may have just, uh, revealed perhaps one of your other, uh, training secrets, which is, uh, which are, which is, uh, you know, this cold plunge that you do after, uh, training into, uh, into this, uh, I'm guessing, like, glacial melt, river water. Is that, is that, does that allow you to recover better after a long ride?

Ned: Well, I, I have done, I have experimented with and, and done cold plunges. Now this river, Is, uh, starting in May, I mean it's really cold, right? It's probably in the 40s, but I think it's, the water when I'm swimming in it for like 20 minutes at a time, I wait till it's, [00:13:00] uh, later in June, early July, and then I think it's in the 60s, so it, it definitely chills me down, it, it's definitely invigorating, that, that's not, it's not, uh, an ice plunge by any means, but, uh, But, uh, I used to soak just my legs in the water in May, you know, after some long workouts.

We, we have a, an iconic road race here that goes from Durango to Silverton. It's 50 miles, 6, 000 feet of climbing, it's kind of the, the big road cycling event this town for the year. So, so I start training for that in May and, and, uh. I used to do cold plunges after some of those may training in ice water, you know, where your legs just went totally numb. And, uh, now I have less discipline for that. I don't, I don't want to suffer that badly. So I wait till the water warms up a little [00:14:00] bit in the river before I, uh, I'm doing those cold plunges.

Kush: Ned, it would behoove, uh, more of us to suffer a little bit more. And it doesn't always have to be, uh, long bike rides with, uh, cold plunges that follow. I think, I think if more of us would maybe even do one of the two. Or just be outside more and enjoy the wonders of nature. I think it's it may result in a healthier society.

I would love to spend a little bit of time, Ned, on your cycling career. So many, so many things I am fascinated by. But to begin with, I believe your fans would call you Captain America. Is that correct?

Ned: Well, I, I have a nickname of being captain, but, uh, it's, it comes from being the, The [00:15:00] leader of the Specialized Cycling Team, the Specialized Mountain Bike Team. So that's a nickname I got of Captain. But it's not Captain America, it's just Captain. And,

Kush: Okay.

Ned: was from being the leader of the Specialized Team.

And I was, I was older, so, you know, I was something that the, the younger riders and the new riders looked up to. I was essentially acting as their mentor. So, uh, where I got the nickname Captain

Kush: Sure. Sure. Sure. And, um, well, nevertheless, um, you know, you have a legion of fans who have followed your, uh, uh, your exploits in the world of sports over the decades. And, uh, I'm curious, uh, if I was to ask an average fan, um, what's that like? One race or moment that they remember you for after all these years.

[00:16:00] What do you think that would be? Oh,

Ned: was a big event. and it was a big event because biking was discovered In the U. S. It was, you know, these, these, um The history of mountain biking really starts at an event in the Bay Area, would say, called Repack. It was a downhill race. It was this group of guys that started racing these paper boy bikes, you know, these fat tire balloon bikes. Cruisers, you'd call them, and they started, uh, racing them down this hill in the, the headlands of Marin County. And the guys who were doing this happened to be guys like Tom Ritchie and, uh, Gary Fisher and Joe Breeze. Guys that went on to [00:17:00] mountain bikes, you know, with gears, with brakes and, uh, developed out of these guys doing that event.

So, so mountain bike racing started, it blew up from that into cross country racing. And, uh, that, that was kind of in the mid to late seventies that those guys were doing that. so mountain bike racing started in the U. S. It was a U. S. sport. It was dominated by Americans. in the beginning and then they have the first world championships that the UCI is recognizing in 1990. So they had already had some unofficial world championships before that starting in, in, uh, 87. They would have one in Mammoth, California, which was a massive event, uh, with, with, you know, thousands of spectators, hundreds of riders, and then they would have one in Europe. You know, they, they had one in Germany, they had one in Switzerland, they had one in, in [00:18:00] France and I won, so there was six world championships essentially before the original worlds, you know, uh, one in the U.

S. and one in Europe and I had won three of those, but now the UCI says, okay, this is the real world championships, so, so all the countries are having their national teams come over, you know, Switzerland, Germany, you know, from Asia and everything. uh, this will determine the first real world championships.

And I, I had already won three and I'm like, what do you mean? I already won three world championships. So there was a lot of pressure on me to, you know, To win this world, know, to prove that, okay, I, I am one of the, know, the, the most competitive mountain bikers at the time. So it was a battle between, uh, me and Thomas Frischknecht, who is, I think I was probably 33, 34 at the time.

Thomas Frischknecht was like 19. it was kind of the little bit older guy, Thomas [00:19:00] Frischknecht had won world championships in cyclocross, which is a sport, you know, where you run with your bike. Through certain sections and at the ski area, you know, lap after lap It had just come down to to the two of us on the final lap There was a super steep section of the front of the ski area and I was riding it and Thomas Frischknecht was running it he was getting off and running it and were kind of staying together But the last lap I managed to get away from him to put a gap on him when I was riding so that that's kind of a a classic moment, you know, that led to me winning the first world championships against Europeans and stuff like that.

An older guy versus younger guy kind of thing. So


Kush: Amazing. So you are, you know, let's say almost twice his age, Ned, and you beat him in the world championships. And I would, yeah, later on in the conversation, you know, [00:20:00] would, would love to deep, dig a bit deeper into some of your talents and being able to, um, Be so consistent as you got older, just sticking with the origins of the sport a little bit.

So I mountain bike recreationally a little bit. Uh, and actually, uh, I am from San Francisco. So I, I, I learned to, let's say, mountain bike , and bike in maybe some of the same trails where the sport, uh, originated. But again, like I said, I am just, you know, very recreational. but one thing about the sport that I find fascinating.

When I think of like some of these outdoor sports we take part in, you know, I find that, um, people who are attracted, they sometimes don't fit into normal culture in some ways. Right. And I'm just curious, what [00:21:00] kind of, personality or athlete was drawn to mountain biking, you know, back, back in those days, let's say four decades or so ago.

And, um, so yeah, was it like this band of like, let's say, misfits, uh, adventurers, perhaps, you know, people who didn't fit into the mainstream world of cycling or, or running. 

Ned: Yeah, no, that's interesting. Well, those original guys, I'd, I'd say, uh, They were, they tended to be hippies, although, you know, mid 70s, right? I mean, people tend to, you know, they had longer hair, they probably, They probably smoked a little pot before this race, I don't doubt. They're living in Marin County, right?

So you know the culture. And I grew up in Marin County. I went to Redwood High School. In, uh, in Larksburg, California,

Kush: Oh, wow. Sure.

Ned: so there was definitely, uh, some counterculture [00:22:00] happening in those days. But, but these guys were also, they were into road cycling. Some of 'em, Fisher and Tom Ritchie were also road cyclists, so they had that fitness side of the sport as well. So. and I think another thing, they have these fire roads all over Marin County, which are beautiful and they're beautiful roads to explore. I learned that, I was a runner, a high school runner, running on the trails and the roads around Marin County was one of the things that drew me into endurance sports. if I was a, uh, You know a high school runner and in a flat area, you know in Iowa or something like that a cross country runner would admit it's it's way less compelling, you know to run on whether it's dirt roads

Kush: . Yeah, I can't agree more. Um, [00:23:00] it is just so breathtakingly beautiful up in the rolling hills of Marin, you know, because you have those beautiful redwood vistas on one side and this, you know, the rolling swells of the Pacific on the other. Like, you don't even have to be a good cyclist to just enjoy being up there.

And maybe I do envy this bit about your time in Marin. Um, Ned is nowadays, a lot of the fire roads, a lot of those are basically closed for cyclists. And I'm guessing back when you were, it was still more open for your band to go and explore.

Ned: well when I was running The trails, course, trails have always been open to runners, and I discovered those trails, and like you say, there, a lake system, like four lakes up there, and you would, you know, at different levels in the mountains, and, you [00:24:00] know, a typical run might be a, oh, I'm gonna do just Phoenix Lake, and, or if you're doing a longer run, I'm gonna go up around Phoenix Lake and Bon Tempe Lake and Alpine Lake, And, uh, on these trails through the redwoods, you know, with redwood, you know, droppings on the trails.

So they're soft and it just, it just drew me into running. I loved it. Now, when I started, uh, I moved to Durango before I started mountain biking. So I didn't mountain bike on those trails in the early days. But when I had gone back there for different events, there's only certain areas around Marin, you know, like China Camp. Um, There's a Boy Scout camp as well that has trails, and most of the trails are closed to mountain bikes. because a lot of that area was, uh, had a lot of influence from horseback riders. [00:25:00] And the horseback riders organized early to keep the mountain bikes off the trails. it's,

Kush: Right. Ned, you

Ned: ride on the fire roads, and the fire roads are spectacular.

And there are different trail areas. can ride on your mountain bike and over the years as mountain bikes have organized more There's been more trails open to to mountain bikers in the Bay Area But it's it's one example of why advocacy is so important for you know People to get involved because numbers matter, you know And and there are a lot of cyclists and if they they join their advocate, you know Our advocates of their trails groups then we can keep more build more trails and keep more trails open to cyclists 

Kush: were racing mountain bikes again, back in those days, early, early days when the sport was, you know, still finding its identity. And what were those early races like? Were they just pure [00:26:00] chaos? 

Ned: Sometimes, sometimes they were, well, the, the packs weren't too big. I mean, they, we, because, uh, you know, it was, it was kind of a new sport, but, uh, the bikes were pretty primitive, you know, uh, hard tail in, in the, uh, the late eighties. I mean, no, no suspension forks. toe clips and straps. Um, and we had tires that tires had tubes.

There was no tubeless tires in those races you had to, you know, there was no spare wheels or pits or anything like that. The rules were you had to repair your own. your own equipment. So if you had a flat, you had, you always carried a spare tube and a, a, uh, you know, CO2 cartridge. in order to prevent flats, we wrote our tires at 40 to 45 PSI, which is rock hard.

So no suspension, rock hard tires, and you're racing [00:27:00] on some really rough courses. So it was, you know, It was, uh, it was pretty grueling in that respect. mean, the equipment is so good now. I mean, you look back on it and it was, it was really primitive. I mean, you know, that was the best, it was state of the art at the time, it, it's improved so much now with index shifting and disc brakes and tubeless tires and, and, uh, full suspension bikes.

You know, now I, I pretty much ride a full suspension bike all the time.

Kush: Ned, I also own like a, let's say, a mid level, uh, full suspension bike. And I'm still scaredy cat when trying to negotiate rough terrain and even small jumps and you were bombing down in a this heavy pack of riders down these steep rocky terrain and i'm sorry i just have to chuckle when you talk about how you were getting injured as a as a runner [00:28:00] and you shifted to mountain biking um any yeah um any serious uh mishaps or or injuries that uh you had to navigate or were you just Just so naturally skilled at mountain biking that you were able to continue.

Ned: you know, knock on wood.

Kush: Indeed.

Ned: have not had, uh, many serious injuries from mountain biking. You know, I've, uh, lost a lot of, uh, skin, let's say road rash and stuff like that. Most of my injuries from cycling have come from road riding. And I do a lot of road riding. I mean, I did a lot of road racing. as well, but I also for training for mountain bike, I would do a lot of road riding.

So road riding in packs and, uh, that is, is where my [00:29:00] biggest injuries have come from. But, but, uh, very few broken bones. I've never broken my collarbone even. So, uh, so I've been fortunate in that respect. Now, when I started mountain bike racing, I had the advantage of having raced motocross. and motorcycles off road, which I'd started in high school on it.

And then I was, uh, I was a motorcycle mechanic at San Francisco, Yamaha, and San Diego Suzuki and stuff like that. So those skills also helped me, uh, set up my mountain bike. Cause in the early days, you know, you had to repair, you didn't have a mechanic, you know, and a support staff going with you, like you do these days.

So you had to set up your own bike and you had to fix the bike on the trail. So those, mechanic skills from motorcycles was a big help as well as the experience of riding a motorcycle off road. Cause you know, things are happening fast when you're on a motorcycle. And, uh, [00:30:00] it, it helped me adapt to, to mountain bike racing pretty quickly. again, I haven't hurt myself. The thing about mountain biking is that usually when you crash, it's your own fault. You've made a mistake, you know, whether you're going too fast for the conditions or, or whatever. In road riding, you, you can't avoid crashing because you're in a pack more because of the drafting. And when people around you crash, a lot of times you go down too. So, uh, so you have less control of your circumstances. You watch the Tour de France. I mean, those are the best cyclists in the world. But they're, they get thrown on a pavement for whatever reason. And a lot of times just because there's a mass, a mass crash, you know, from somebody in the pack crossing wheels or whatever. So I like that aspect of mountain biking is that you can control your own safety. You have a lot more control over it then in, in road racing [00:31:00] and road

Kush: Absolutely. the pack riding and, and, biking in the road. Uh, I avoid that even though there are lots of group rides that happen in San Francisco. I'm just, yeah, I don't have the skills. I, I, yeah, I can just about manage my own safety when I'm riding solo and doing that in the back. It just seems, um, Yeah, it just seems kind of otherworldly in being able to do that at high speeds and turning corners.

You know, the bikes back then were so different than the bikes we have today. And yes, sounds like you had a bit of an unfair advantage with your skills as a bike mechanic and you were likely able to, uh, both tune the bikes in maybe a, uh, a superior way. And, uh, Also, maybe able to repair the bikes, uh, maybe adjust them on the fly, which, uh, sounds like a really good skill to have.

The bikes these days have evolved so much, you [00:32:00] know, it's, it's ridiculous, like the range with both, uh, yeah, equipment, uh, type of material with all kinds of bikes. But other than that, uh, how has the sport evolved? From those early days. Uh, and maybe in which ways has it remained the same? 

Ned: Well, it's, it's roots It's, it's definitely very different now, now in the, in the early days. Of mountain bike racing, cross country racing, right? And, and in the beginning, there was only cross country racing. They, they didn't have downhill. They just considered that cross country racing included downhill, right?

And it happened a lot of ski areas. You'd climb to the top of the ski area, you know, and then you'd be racing down and you'd be doing laps of those courses. And the courses tend to be long, tended to be longer. A lot of our cross country races were two and a half to three [00:33:00] hours. Now that, uh, over the years, the UCI, which is the governing body of, of all cycling, but they govern mountain biking, mandated that they want the cross country races in the world cup. be about an hour and a half long. you know, they, and there are shorter laps, so they tend to be like five or six mile laps and they, they want this for TV coverage, So it's easier to have access for, for, uh, spectators and, and it's easier to cover on TV, so that means they don't have as long of climbs. uh, and the races are shorter. So it's quite a, the sport has really changed in that an hour and a half race, you start off really fast and the pace is really high and, uh, the whole time. So before, if you're racing two and a half, three hours and you have some [00:34:00] climbs, you know, you have climbs that could have been 2000 foot climbs at the time, and it actually favored a guy more like me.

I tend to be, you know, excel at the climbing. I'm a skinny, lighter guy. So, uh, bike racers today, mountain bike racers today, I say they're a little bit bigger. They're a little more explosive. And, uh, and a little bit more power riders. So, so it's interesting. It has changed. Um, to me, there's, there's still a connection to the roots.

Cause if you, if you look at these mountain bike racers on social media, You know, they're having fun out in the woods, riding their bikes. They, you know, loving the training aspect, the fact that they are professional mountain bike racers that, you know, they're going all over the world, riding beautiful trails and having fun on those trails and the scenery and, and getting in the back country. I think that, that part of it [00:35:00] is, is still very much alive. 

Kush: Ned, I look at these outdoor sports and sometimes I look at, let's say more mainstream sports. And in the last few years, more and more of these outdoor sports are now in the Olympics. You know, obviously we have had mountain biking for a while, but now we have rock climbing, we have surfing and There is more money in these sports now than there was, let's say, when you started, but at least I know this from the, uh, climbing world that most climbers still have to struggle to make a living, even the world's best ones.

In cycling, again in mountain biking, do you think more of the top cyclists, do you think there are, there's more, let's say, intrinsic motivation, or do you think there is? Also these other extrinsic factors that attract and keep these elites at the top. [00:36:00] 

Ned: So if you're motivated by money alone, There's not enough money in mountain biking for enough people to really sustain that motivation. You have to love the sport. You know, there are some people making some good money at mountain biking, but, uh, geez, if I had to say the actual numbers, you know, the guys at the top, the very best riders, you know, they'll be making two or 300, 000 a year, right? Which is good money. But the amount of people make riders making that money, you know, say just on the guy side, maybe, maybe 10 guys. And then it drops off really quickly, you know, and there might be, uh, you know, another 10 making 50 to a hundred then it drops off so that, you know, it's people who are [00:37:00] just sustaining themselves on the circuit and not, not putting any money in the bank.

You know, and maybe relying on mom and dad to help out. So, you know, the odds of making, uh, you're not going to get rich mountain bike racing. You have to love the sport. You have to love the competition and, uh, you know, traveling to different, different, uh, courses that are so hard. You really have to embrace a tough sport and the conditions.

I went to a couple of World Cups. Followed the, the team at, uh, Val di Sole in Italy last year, and then Kranz Montana in Switzerland. you know, it was freezing rain in Kranz Montana, a super slick course, super challenging riders going down right and left and, and hurting themselves. You know, I mean, not life threatening, but [00:38:00] broken legs and broken collarbones and broken wrists and things and things of that nature.

And, uh, You know, a lot of these were U23 riders who, uh, may not be making any salary at all, know, they are, uh, they're just supported by maybe their federation or, or their, or their parents, or they're supporting themselves. So, very tough conditions, very hard sport, and, uh, they do it for the, the love of the competition and the fact that they love, They love riding mountain bikes. So, uh, not sure if that answered your question or

Kush: No, it does. It does. I think it, it, um, yeah, I mean, it affirms the suspicion I had that there isn't enough money in the sport to attract people who are not truly in love with the sport. And, yes, I, I do wish, uh, that our best athletes were paid better. [00:39:00] At the same time, part of me also kind of, um, rejoices in how it continues keeping maybe the spirit of the, uh, the sport a bit more pure.

Uh, I know it sounds a little bit, cheesy to say that. Ned, uh, going back to your early years a little bit, uh, I was fascinated to learn that you didn't just grow up in the U. S. You actually spent time in Ethiopia and Iran and maybe some other places as a kid. Actually, it's funny, I spent a couple of years in Addis Ababa myself when I was small.

My dad was working there. But I'm curious, yeah, I mean, given your, let's say, non typical upbringing, what How did that experience shape you as an athlete? 

Ned: Well, it's interesting. It, I wasn't into [00:40:00] that much athletics when we were traveling, certainly, certainly no competition. It was, it was up through, uh, well, first of all, let me explain how, how we ended up in all those different countries. My dad worked for the, for the state department. USAID, his entire career was which is, know, in these times, I mean, uh, Elon and Trump have pretty much dissolved USAID and they have a history of saving millions of lives over the years.

So I don't know that we necessarily need to get into the politics of that, but that's, that's why I was born in Taiwan. Because we were stationed in, in Taiwan at the time. And then, uh, we would come back to Bethesda, Maryland, you know, which is close to DC, the state department in between our traveling overseas.

So, we also spent three years in, in [00:41:00] Tehran and it came back and then spent, uh, three and a half years in, in Ethiopia in Addis Ababa. So I, I was active in all those places. I remember I. Interestingly, when I, when we lived in Ethiopia, I had a, a cruiser bike, a balloon. You know, tire, kind of a paperboy style bike, which I, I would ride around a lot on some rough roads there. You know, that's, that's when I was like in, uh, maybe the fifth or sixth grade. So 10 or 11 years old. I also had a horse. We had horses when we were in Ethiopia. So do some horseback riding as well. uh, when I came back to the U S and Bethesda, Maryland, I first got into sports. In middle school, I went out for track, you know, and ran like the quarter mile and a half mile and, uh, learned to love endurance sports there.

So one thing doing all that [00:42:00] travel helped me with, I think, is that, uh, to me, I found travel natural, the different cultures, you know, different food and stuff like that. And, and when I started traveling for the world cup, uh, It was really important be comfortable traveling and, uh, not be so stressed about it.

There's a lot of Americans when they would travel over to, to Europe, the different food, the time change. That would mess with their systems. And if you're not at a hundred percent when you're lining up for a race, you know, cause the food is throwing you off or you, you couldn't adapt to the, new time zone or something like that.

It would, it would really affect your racing. So I was, uh, I was pretty good at traveling. Always, always have been, I guess. I'm, I'm relaxed about it. That's key. You know, I miss a flight. I don't like stress out and have a lot of anxiety and I just relax and just say, that's part of [00:43:00] traveling and, uh, what's the next flight I'm going to take to, to get to where I'm going. 

Kush: such an interesting observation, Ed. Where, being able to quickly adapt yourself to a sport that is so international, where you have to travel of time. I mean, I'm guessing more than just, let's say, tolerating,

Let's say these, um, uh, these changes, the, uh, the disruptions, I'm guessing in some way, maybe you almost, uh, I don't know, enjoyed them because I sense that travel and adventure seem to come somewhat naturally to you. I am recording this podcast, uh, as listeners know from, uh, the mountains of, uh, Nouveau Lyon in, in, in Mexico.

And I love traveling and I sometimes wonder, you know, do I rock climb? Uh, no, do I, do I travel so I can rock climb [00:44:00] or do I rock so I can travel? Because for me, it is just this one beautiful, uh, uh, path that life, uh, has, has brought to us. I mean, it's, it's, it's a gift, uh, indeed. Was there a moment, Annette, as you were growing up, um, uh, when you realized that there was something different about you when it came to outdoor, let's say, endurance sports, uh, you started out as a runner and then you morphed into other things.

Was there a point when you, uh, you knew that, uh, you had something in you, like, like, I am built for this thing? 

Ned: there is an interesting event that took place I was in junior college and I was running cross country. I was a pretty good cross country runner, you know, our high school cross country team uh, we won that Northern California championships [00:45:00] and, uh, you know, it was very competitive, uh, area.

So, so we were good runners, but, uh, was nothing like, you know, when, when I ran track and stuff, I mean, you know, they were exceptional runners. guys that, uh, you know, went on to be in the Olympics and running college and, and things of that nature. I didn't have that kind of speed. We were a good crop, you know, good cross country team. and I was also running cross country in junior college and we had, we had a meet that was, uh. In Yosemite Valley. And so the, the, it was a junior college, it was College of Marin and we traveled to Yosemite Valley and, you know, we had like a, I think the distance we ran in junior college was a 10 K, you know, when we had a 10 K on, on the Valley floor, know, and I was maybe 10th or 15th. You know, in that, in [00:46:00] that didn't have a lot of climbing in it, but then the next day they had planned a 10 mile run to the top of Glacier Point. it was a run that, that gained maybe 2, 500, 3, 000 feet. And, um, it was a 10 mile. And, you know, I went into that, I won that, that run by a fairly large margin again.

And there was like six or seven schools. here who had all their, their cross country teams there. And that was a bit of a revelation to me that, Oh, okay, well, hill running up hills evidently is something that I'm well suited to. uh, and doing that, then I kind of, uh, sought out hill climb races. I was, I was second twice in the Pikes Peak Marathon, you know, which is, uh, goes from 7 to 14, 000 feet in back down, you know, [00:47:00] so it's a 20, it's actually a 28 mile marathon, but, uh, I was also second in the, uh, Estes Park Mountain Marathon.

I've won several, I moved to Colorado in 1980 to Durango, I did mountain runs. We have a local, runs that, you know, trail runs that go up the mountains and, and I won. You know, Imogene Pass, Kendall Mountain. So I won these runs. So I was, you know, that that's, it was a revelation at the time that I can go uphill well.

And that's, that's been a theme throughout, you know, when I went into mountain biking, it's perfect for that because there's a ton of climbing and mountain biking. But also in road racing,

Kush: Amazing. Well, uh, obviously, Yeah, you had some genetics to your 

advantage, but then there was, 

I am positive, an enormous amount of hard work and discipline that went 

[00:48:00] into your 

training, your lifestyle beyond that early discovery of your, of your talent. But 

when you were in your prime, Nat, 

What was your training like?

Like, like, like how brutal were those sessions? 

Ned: I am in my prime. What do you mean?

Kush: Sorry, of course, of course. Let me just, 

let me just be very like, uh, you know, specific. 

Let's say those days when you were winning those world championships.

Ned: What would I, what I would do? I'm, I'm self coached. Uh, I've never really had a coach. I've learned a lot from coaches 

and, uh, you know, I'm a voracious, 

a voracious appetite for coaching information, you know, Joe Friel is, I think does a great job of, uh, of 

breaking down the, the training 

process. So I, I, you know, I read a lot [00:49:00] of, of different stuff about coaching, but what I would do in those days, 

was a lot of, uh, climbing 

courses, you know, and it would, the courses were, you know, You know, a lot of the, it was decided on the climbs living in 

Durango, I would do is, is drive 

to, uh, a place in the San Juan mountains where they have these very steep, uh, 

mining roads. You know, four wheel drive 

mining roads and, and that way, you know, when, when it's a road, it's not like a trail, but when it's, it's a road and it's super 

steep and long, you can just focus on the fitness, 

right? And it's so steep. I mean, it's hard to actually stay on the bike and, and it's at high altitude, you know, and some of these races were at 

altitude. many of them were an altitude 

skiers like Mammoth or, uh, or Big Bear, California and stuff. So, so I would [00:50:00] go and do 

repeats on these, these climbs 

where they're so steep you could barely stay on the bike. So a lot of pressure on your legs and, uh, and in 

thin air and stuff. And those, those, those are the kind 

of training sessions I would do. put myself through, but it's interesting. I, I was doing really well 

and maybe dominating a lot of these style races 

in mountain bikes. And then a guy, a young kid named John Tomac jumped in and Tomac was a, a BMX 

champion, and he started mountain bike racing when he was about 

18. And all of a sudden, this guy went downhill so fast, everybody else kind of had 

to recalibrate. And it was like, cause he was also a 

strong climber, but, uh, he could gain so much time on the downhill technical stuff. forced 

everybody, of the, the rest of us racers 

to go [00:51:00] faster downhill. We had to improve our technical skills. So it wasn't enough just to practice my climbing and stuff like that. 

I had to, uh, figure out, and a lot of, 

you know, going fast downhill is how you set the bike up. as well. But, uh, so I, I had to improve. I had to 

essentially take more risk, go downhill faster 

and think more about my downhill technique. stuff to improve in order to stay competitive with John Tomac.

Kush: Yeah, for sure. I mean, mountain biking is this, you know, Maybe this kaleidoscopic discipline, right? Like there's so many challenges that are coming to 

you. Yeah, not only it's, it's 

interesting. Like I had a Tinker who I was on the podcast and Tinker also was like an early, let's say BMX prodigy. And he talked about how he has to train 

so much in his case, so much for 

endurance.

Because, because for him, perhaps the technical elements of [00:52:00] like navigating, navigating, navigating. Um, challenging 

terrain are easier, but 

for the rest of us, it is being able to acquire the technical skills and maybe the bike know how to be able to learn the 

technical elements. So yes, I, your, your training 

was, I guess, yeah, so all encompassing.

Um, how did you, 

yeah, given these training demands, net, 

um, how did you. like balance the line between like training hard enough, right? Like you were 

training so much 

to stay competitive, but not overtraining and burning out, which is, 

yeah, which is so important for keeping that fire 

alive. Because like we discussed, you know, you were not getting paid in gold bricks, you know, you [00:53:00] were like doing it because you love the sport so much.

Ned: Yeah, I mean, that, that's the key, right? Finding that 

stress recovery ratio 

suits you. Different for everybody. And it's different for people 

as you go throughout the season, right? When you're in less, 

you know, you're not as in good of shape early in the season. You know, you're going to need 

more recovery from the stresses of racing 

as you, as you get stronger and stronger, you can stress yourself 

harder. Uh, but your 

stress ratio, stress recovery ratio 

changes. And that's why it's good to have 

a coach because a coach can have an outside view of what's happening with 

you. You know, they can, they can take the data of, 

okay, are you sick? People. Over trained 

because they become obsessive about their training, 

they, Oh, maybe I'm sick.

Well, I still have to get the miles [00:54:00] in, you know, 

so instead of recovering from their sickness, they just dig 

themselves a hole, know, they, they continue to train hard. They don't recover from the 

sickness. Uh, when you're traveling, 

uh, you know, people get to a race and I, I saw it all the time. People would 

travel to Europe, arrive 

at a race and they're used to putting in a certain amount of hours. On the bike. 

And as soon as they get there, they, you know, they just continue 

their, their normal training regimen and they don't. They don't 

allow for the stress of the travel 

and so it is you 

having being able 

to take a look at yourself and see how recovered 

you are and of course there's all kinds of signals, you know, there's 

there's heart rate and and, uh, things of that nature that 

you can monitor.

And that's one thing a coach takes an 

outside look, especially with young kids. Young kids [00:55:00] are, 

are definitely, uh, at risk of 

training too hard cause they got too much energy and they're hard to hold back. Right. 

So that's where young kids can definitely benefit from a coach, but 

I've always done pretty well at training hard, 

but not overtraining, having, having that right. 

stress recovery ratio. So for whatever reason, 

I wasn't an obsessive trainer. I 

don't put in a ton of volume. I still don't put in a ton of volume, 

but uh, I kind of embrace the 

intensity. I like to train with intensity. So I think that's good, 

especially as you get older. think that 

intensity is important from what I've read, 

maintaining. a high percentage of your 

VO2 capacity. It's important to train with intensity. 

That's the kind of training that I embrace and, 

uh, not doing a ton of volume. If you do volume and [00:56:00] intensity, 

it's, it's easier to get into, uh, that, 

uh, situation where you're overtraining. Problem with overtraining is 

it's all about building momentum in your training, right?

I like to think of it as momentum. You're building training and and 

you're gaining momentum towards improving 

and all those little things. You get sick, you lose your momentum. You get 

injured, you lose your momentum. You 

overtrain, you have to back off and lose your momentum. So, 

catching these things early, 

maybe it's a sore knee. Right? knee is sore. When you're 

a kid, you train through it. Your body heals itself much quicker. 

When you're older, if you got a sore knee or, 

or upper back problem or, you 

know, something, you have to address it quickly before it 

affects the momentum in your training. So, 

I don't know. The holistic look, it's worked well for me, however, I've done [00:57:00] it.

Kush: Net, I am, yeah, I'm absolutely boggled that you were 

the world's best mountain 

cyclist. multiple times and you did not have a formal coach. That 

sounds, sounds, it 

was that a conscious decision? Like, did you learn some truths about yourself that 

made you maybe realize that, wait a 

second, like I, I understand myself, my gifts, my opportunities, and I can do this myself.

Ned: Well, I had to, I had to figure out how to do it myself or, 

or get a coach. 

I don't like the structure of somebody else telling me how to train. 

And, uh, I 

saw other people, you know, who had coaches and I think it worked well for them, but they would have to go from one coach 

to the [00:58:00] next before they found a coach that really 

worked well with them. You know, they, they had a rapport with and stuff. 

And I learned a lot from, 

from, uh, my teammates who had coaches. 

You know, and talking about what their 

training program was and how they were dealing with their coach and, and, it was 

interesting to, to see again, it was about 

absorbing a lot of information about coaching and then applying it to my own 

situation, you know, where do I, where do I need to improve? 

Constantly trying to figure out to 

improve. You know, taking responsibility 

for mistakes I made, you know, whether it's mechanical, whether it's going out too 

fast in a race, uh, 

You know, I do an event and afterwards you might listen to 

guys at the finish line and there's, Oh, you know, I 

had a flat tire.

Oh, uh, you know, I bonked, [00:59:00] you know, all these 

excuses, you have to take responsibility for everything that 

happened to you in the race. You had a flat tire. It's, you know, you didn't properly set up your equipment. 

You're riding with too low a pressure and 

too fast for the trail conditions, whatever you crashed.

That's your own fault. That's, 

that's not luck when you crash. It's not bad luck when you 

crash. You know, your own luck in those situations. So, 

so that, that's just been, uh, 

I'm fascinated with the whole coaching process and, 

and developing fitness. And so I've been a 

of a student and, and still am of coaching information.

Kush: Again, that I am just fascinated that you were able 

to, um, Coach yourself. 

Um, so, 

these days, there is just 

so much information out there on all of these 

[01:00:00] outdoor sports. Uh, on 

coaching and learning and, you know, tips and 

tricks. Uh, there's social media, there's books, 

there's YouTube, there are podcasts like this 

one.

So, I'm For the 

everyday athlete, again not like a, like a world championship, uh, 

competitor, just the everyday athlete, 

how does one know where to turn to for 

the most useful, 

applicable information?

Ned: Well, You're right. There is so much information, and 

I think a lot of it's good information. Um, 

you know, I think Joe Friel has, he's written a book, Fast 

After 50. uh, to me, 

he lays out the steps for coaching. 

I think one thing you need to under do, understand 

is you don't just do what some [01:01:00] coach advises. You have to 

understand what the effects of 

that training are. have on you, you know, so 

to me, I think a good coach 

would explain to even a young writer. It's not just, okay, here's what I want you to 

do. I want you to, you know, do these intervals on this day, 

you know, and this is a rest day and this is going to be an endurance day. You actually 

explain to the athlete by 

doing intervals on this day, you know, these style of intervals. it's 

going to improve this. System, you know, 

and that's why you're going to need this amount of recovery and we will 

need to determine, you know, we're not just going to automatically 

do hard training the next day because it's a interval day.

We're going 

to determine whether you're recovered enough. You know, it's a 

malleable process that's adapted to the 

athlete and how their needs are changing. So 

to me, a, [01:02:00] a coaching, 

uh, a coach who explains 

what the different workouts are going to do for you and the different 

recovery things. So you understand it, you know, 

and then it's much easier for the, the athlete to follow through, 

you know, on his instructions, but, but people who 

just describe the whole, explain the whole process.

I think, I think that's what you should look for. 

in coaching information, how they justify 

it, not just them telling you what to do to get better.

Kush: How they justify it? And, any, um, 

Any other tips 

on being able to, let's say, wade through all that noise, uh, 

at a high level and finding out, uh, what might 

apply to that particular person? Because, you know, we are all different and even you had to, 

likely, calibrate, learn 

[01:03:00] from your mistakes and fine tune what worked for you.

Sure.

Ned: I 

think you can take all this coaching information and apply 

the workouts to yourself, again, 

it has to be personalized to you, how you're recovering day to day, 

right? You, you can't just say, okay, today is supposed to be, 

I'm supposed to be doing, you know, this style of workout, you have to pay attention to how you're feeling. 

Whether it's heart rate, I mean, I can feel 

it in my legs. Say I go out, I'm going to do some intervals today. I'm going to do some hill repeats because, you know, this, I'm, 

you know, yesterday was a recovery day. I'm, I'm training 

for this specific race. It has a similar type of climbing and, uh, I'll go out. 

will allow myself one, 

say it's, you know, there are three minute helper pleas.

I'll do one. I don't feel so good. I don't turn around and 

[01:04:00] decide I'm going to do an easy ride. I at least do another one cause 

sometimes it's hard to, you know, it takes a little while to open up. You know, the first one, I may feel 

really crappy and sluggish, you know, and then 

the second one I start to open up. Now, if. If the quality of the intervals I'm doing, 

if that second one, you know, gets even worse than the first 

one and I, and I can feel that my legs are sluggish and sore and stuff like that, then I will abandon that 

workout and, uh, you know, do a, an easy 

recovery ride. uh, active recovery and, you know, shoot 

to come back maybe the next day and attempt to do 

those intervals.

So, regardless of the information you're, you're getting, you have to apply 

it to how you're feeling day to day and how you're 

recovering. I mean, if, which, uh, yeah. A lot of people just 

beat themselves up, you know, if, and they're just digging 

a hole [01:05:00] of over training. And one thing to, to really. Realize is that 

you don't get better from training 

hard. You get better from recovering you train hard, right? You train 

hard and you recover and your body builds 

itself up stronger than before you train hard. So recovery is 

just as important as the 

you know, as the, the stress you're putting on your, on your body,

Kush: Yeah. And I think,

Ned: how important recovery is.

Kush: yeah. And I mean, that, that seems to be echoed universally across 

all, all athletic disciplines, the importance 

of recovery. You mentioned being able to listen to yourself and being able to adapt when 

something is working, which is not working. 

Were you an, are you like a, like a, [01:06:00] like a meticulous, like diary, like a diary?

or a 

training journal keeper, or 

are you just so good at learning by feel, and remembering, and then adapting?

Ned: It's really more by feel. I mean, I, I don't keep a training diary now, although that's 

not true. I don't keep a track. I don't 

write anything down now, but I, all of my workouts are on Strava. So 

that's, that's the beauty of Strava is that, uh, 

you know, it's, it's way, it's, uh, way more detailed than, 

uh, the, uh, I 

used to write down in a training diary when I was, when I was racing, uh, 

so I, I use Strava a lot to, 

uh, incentivize myself and. for intervals and 

stuff like that. I've used Strava since 2012, 

pretty much put all my rides on, on Strava. So I've got data going back [01:07:00] all the way to 2012. 

And then there's all these segments that, you know, I 

can compare to. Over the years, how I've done or, or even throughout the season, 

which gives you a great idea of, of where you 

are in terms of fitness in the season. So, also become more 

meticulous about my sleep. I use an Oura ring 

because I realize how important sleep is. And as I've gotten older, I've struggled 

to get quality sleep more, which I think 

tends to happen with age. With older people, they wake up in the middle of the night more and have, 

you know, have a hard time quality sleep.

I used to think that, uh, Okay, I've got eight hours, you know, I'm going to bed 

now and I'm getting up now. So 

I've had eight hours and that's a good amount of sleep. But with the Oura Ring, I realized 

that, uh, you know, my sleep efficiency, 

I'm actually sleeping, you know, maybe six and a half hours 

a night. For the eight hours [01:08:00] that I'm spending in bed. 

So, uh, so it's interesting and it Let you realize, 

you know the different things maybe it's coffee Maybe it's 

you know, too much screen time before you go to bed eating too late sugar too late things 

like that so you can dial in your Your sleep 

quality. And that's, uh, that's one thing I've become more meticulous about.

Kush: Ned, you know, you might be self coached, but it sounds 

like you have been quite, uh, astute 

about adapting and embracing. 

New technology as it, 

as it comes in. And, I mean, 

are you an ambassador for Strava or, uh, 

Ura, any of these, uh, tools?

Ned: but I, 

I should be, I actually pay the Strava I pay the

Kush: What?

Ned: Strava

Kush: No 

way! I'm shocked!

Ned: asked them about it. I, [01:09:00] you know, with, gives me a, a free, uh, a, a free membership. But,

Kush: Okay.

Ned: no, I haven't pursued Strava about, about being an ambassador. I did, I do. 

Uh, a huge believer 

in Strava. It's been, it's been great for me, for my training.

Absolutely.

Kush: Strava is listening, they need to, uh, at the very 

least, waive your, your 

premium membership free. Um, 

so, 

okay. I want to ask 

you a little bit about 

you dominated mountain biking, 

but then at some point you decided to jump 

into triathlons. You know, you're going 

from a sport where you are basically 

hammering the pedals, um, to now having to 

like, include [01:10:00] swimming 

and maybe one of the earliest sports running.

So 

what were that, 

what were the hardest part about that shift for you? 

Ned: Uh, it's a good question. And, and it's, complicated. I mean, I actually did some triathlon early 

in the days. I went to San Diego state 

and, uh, when I was in San Diego, the early days of triathlon. I did some triathlons at that time. I was a runner. I ran in high 

school and college, so I had a running 

background. And, uh, I was, I, when I was in San Diego, I used to love to body surf. I was never surfed with a surfboard, 

but I did a lot of body surfing. I, I wasn't 

a competitive swimmer when I grew up. So that was the hardest part about getting into triathlon was, uh, 

was figuring out the swim. That's, 

that's been difficult.

That's a, [01:11:00] a tough sport to take on, you know, when you're learning it as an adult, 

but it, the reason 

I was still fit. And, uh, I think in my prime, even though I think in 96, 

when I retired from the world cup, I was 40 years old. 

Um, drugs had come into the mountain bike race scene. And, uh, 

it was quite evident and it started in about 

94. And, uh, and I, and I'm not just, uh, 

about this, you know, it turned out 

in the future, you know, a lot of the guys that, uh, We were racing against, were busted or admitted taking drugs, but 

mostly, mostly from becoming positive. They had no 

test for EPO EPO had come over from the roadside. Jerome Chiodi was one of the first guys. 

Uh, [01:12:00] who, who was popped and admitted taking 

drugs. He had come from the Festina team on, on the roadside. So, so road cycling, the drug issues they had, 

mountain biking was popular. There was money in it. And some of those 

athletes started coming over. And, uh, in 94, I think I won three World Cups in 94. 

In 95, I could barely 

finish in the top five, even the top 10. It changed really quickly. So, uh, so I was, 

was, uh, fine with, 

uh, getting away from mountain biking. I didn't want to travel all over the world in the world cup to race against guys who were, know, 

who had an advantage from, from using EPO. 

So that was one of the reasons that it was, it was very frustrating to, an international mountain bike racer at that time. 

I saw the XTERRA 

triathlon and it was in Maui. Right? And, and it, [01:13:00] I didn't, was just beginning in 96, which was 

the

Kush: May I, may I, yeah, sorry, may I interrupt? 

Thanks for, uh, just putting a pin 

on, pin on that error where All of a 

sudden, you know, from dominating this, this sport, 

you faced this, uh, let's say 

unfair adversity because there were people 

who had, who were taking these, uh, uh, substances. 

Just, yeah. So, so there 

were people in Europe who you were competing with.

What 

was that culture shifting? I mean, you avoided it. 

drugs, but did you see 

other, uh, fellow athletes get 

tempted and fall prey to 

EPO or other, uh, [01:14:00] enhancers?

Ned: I wouldn't, definitely. Now they weren't, 

they weren't talking about it with me, right? I mean, if you're 

smart and you're taking drugs, you're not going to talk about your fellow about it with your fellow athletes, 

but you could see, you could see the 

change the athletes and, and you can see it in a guy 

who is not young.

You know, when, if a guy is 18, 

19 years old, you know, year to year, he might make some, some big gains in 

his performances, but if you have a guy 

that's, you know, been racing for five or six years and he's, you know, He's 

years old and, you 

know, he's finishing in a, in a certain place in the pack, he may move up a 

little bit, but he's not all of a sudden moving onto the podium 

or winning races. And, and this was happening with, with, with 

guys at that time. And it was, it was pretty obvious. 

And, uh, I, I definitely saw it. There was. [01:15:00] 

Yeah, without, uh, I mean, I, I would never cast on anybody and, 

and say that I think they're taking drugs and, and 

name that person without knowing, because that's, you know, you would never want anyone to do that about you, right? If you're not taking drugs and they say, Oh, 

Because people, I'm sure they think that about me because I, 

I did very well as a, as a master's athlete, you know, racing in the pro category.

So there's no doubt people 

think that, that, uh, You know, I was 

taking drugs. Plus I was, I was racing at a time when there was a lot of drugs in the sport. uh, I was fortunate to 

be in mountain biking and have success when 

there was no drugs in the sport. And likewise, then in Xterra, you know, which was a new sport and it wasn't 

a lot of incentive for people to be taking 

drugs and, and cheating cause there wasn't a lot of money [01:16:00] in it.

But, but, uh, I was fortunate. And, you know, Dave Weins. 

And Tomac and I would discuss, you know, would 

be at races that we used to be competitive at and we'd say to each other, thank God we were in the sport and had some success at 

it this started happening, 

know, and, and since then, to be clear, I, I think the sport has, is quite clean. It's really been cleaned up 

since the, you know, advancement of, 

of, you know, highly technical testing and EPO tests and, you know, the professional 

cyclists today have to go so 

much testing out of competition testing. You know, they have what they call the blood passport, which monitors your. You know, your blood 

values year to year and super invasive, you know, 

and really a pain in the ass for the athletes, but it's, you know, it's one of the costs of, of trying to keep clean. And [01:17:00] I think there's more 

testing and cycling than in any other endurance sport, 

and partly because of their history. So I think it's good now. And yeah, I definitely saw people go down that, 

that, that road and 

in the ways that they justified it. Um, Similar to Lance Armstrong and, and some of the guys 

that were popped there, you know, they were saying, Oh, it's just a level 

playing field because everyone's taking drugs. And that's how a lot of guys started to justify it in mountain biking, right?

They saw, oh, these guys who were winning are 

taking drugs. So that's what I have to do to win, you 

know, and uh, It was hard. It was a very hard time. Uh, you know, in cycling, 

hard to stay motivated. really 

unfortunate for young riders coming up who had to make that decision. If they wanted to be competitive, they would, have to consider cheating.

Kush: And it sounds like that, you know, you kind of 

[01:18:00] astutely avoided 

making this difficult. I'm guessing if everybody else is. 

Taking enhancers. I mean, 

obviously there must have been temptation, but you chose this third route, which 

is you skipped to another sport entirely. 

Sound like you were, you know, you, you had accomplished so much 

success and you were 

intrigued, maybe fascinated by the world of triathlon.

So kind of going back to 

learning a new sport. As an older 

individual, how difficult 

was it to learn swimming, for example, learn this whole new discipline 

and then become 

competitive in triathlons and being so successful in your 40s?

Ned: Yeah. I w I was still motivated 

to, to [01:19:00] perform, 

to get results. You know, when I was, uh, 

you know, I didn't think of myself as being 40 years old. I thought of myself 

as an athlete. Who's still had some potential, you 

know, I, what, I didn't think in those terms of. 

of age and oh, I'm 40. So, you know, I'm, 

I'm past my prime.

I actually wanted to prove that 

I still had potential, even though I could no longer 

win in those times at international 

mountain bike racing. So, uh, 

and the allure of Maui and 

something different and it being a off road 

triathlon uh, 

You know, I love trail running, you know, I've done trail running as cross 

training the whole time I was mountain biking, usually 

mainly in the off season, and I had a history of 

being a good climber.

I looked at this course in Maui 

and it had a massive climb in it, a ton 

of climbing in the mountain bike. I mean an XTERRA [01:20:00] is a one mile 

swim, a 20 mile mountain bike and then a 10k 

run and the run was a 

kind of, not a ton of climbing, but challenging. It was a trail 

run, a technical trail run over rocks and 

sandy beaches and stuff like that.

So it was a, it was a hard run. 

especially after the, and the swim was in the ocean. 

So, so, uh, and all of those things 

and going to Maui, I wasn't sure that I was going to all of a sudden 

be, you know, switch over and become an exterior 

athlete. I was just doing the first one and I got third in the first 

one. I mean, I trained for it. Uh, I think it was 

in September. So I, I had some time to 

train. Running and swimming part. I was third to, 

uh, Mike pig and Jimmy Riccitello, 

you know, who are as established, uh, triathletes. 

And I thought, okay, third, I can, do this 

and they started an Xterra series after that. So, I mean, it's. 

I was really [01:21:00] fortunate. It was, it was 

just the right time for me. And, and the Xterra series was in, 

you know, places like Hawaii. You finish 

with the, the Xterra and there you are in Hawaii, right? So 

obviously you stay and spend some time and it's, it was kind of 

cool. All my mountain bike races, generally I'm going to the mountains. And 

stuff. There's not too many beach venues. So, so 

the fact that I got third was 

incentive to, uh, to try and do 

better at it and the next year I was, uh, second. 

And then the third year I, I won the championships, 

the third and fourth year they had it, but then they had a whole 

series. So, so, uh, I was supported by 

specialized to, uh, kind of continue to race at the same 

time. I was an employee of Specialized working 

in, in sports marketing and, uh, product development 

too. So getting out there and 

racing, uh, it's an important part of sports 

marketing and, [01:22:00] product development as well. I mean, 

Specialized has always used racing in all of 

its forms as a, as a 

major part of its product development, right?

Whether it's the Tour de France 

racers or the, 

you know, the Ironman racers. Triathlon, 

uh, cyclocross, mountain bike, 

they're all arms of the product development team.

Kush: Net, you said something which I think is so, um, such, such a important mindset. 

Let's say strategy, which is when you made your shift, 

it wasn't because, 

because you thought necessarily that, Hey, you were getting older and 

you were past your prime in one thing and you 

wanted to start something else. Your approach was, Hey, 

I want to do this because 

this playing field has changed and I'm attracted 

to this [01:23:00] other sport.

maybe going to 

Maui and getting the chance to recreate and like, obviously that 

beautiful, uh, place. 

And I think many people seem to 

not think about that, which is maybe getting 

older is an opportunity to, to, to get into something new. 

I'm wondering what are maybe, um, some things that, 

that an old athlete Can, can learn from, or just anybody who's maybe hitting 

40 and over can learn from your 

experience on, on being able to begin something new with that excitement, with that gusto. 

Ned: So there's, there's a few things that come to mind here. I mean, one, you say, getting, getting into new sports, 

there's sports that are fun. And, and for instance, a sport I might like to try doing, right, is, I love the water. 

[01:24:00] I'm not so sure I could get into surfing, but maybe 

kiteboarding there's to go out and experience and, and give it a chance and learn the sport. Don't be so 

frustrated. Don't get frustrated so easy. Right. 

and do it in a way that, uh, gradually get into the sport, get some instruction 

on it. Uh, when I had to learn to 

swim, trying to teach yourself to swim, that's, that's not the best way to go about it. Swimming is so technical. You have to 

get some expertise, have somebody evaluate 

your, your swim stroke.

You can't just, you know, because you're an accomplished athlete and you've got a lot of fitness, you just can't get in the pool and figure out 

swimming. I mean, so I, I had to get some 

guys to examine my stroke. uh, and, and work with me on improving my swimming. So 

I think if you're getting into a new sport, 

and I think if someone is going to get, they're not mountain biking [01:25:00] now, get some instruction on mountain biking, 

don't just cry and go figure it out, because it's going to be frustrating. 

You know, if you fall off or you're slow or, and more dangerous if, if you're not careful, you know, at least, you 

know, look at videos on YouTube and, and read about it. 

So, so I would advise people when they get into a new sport to, to get into it 

more gradually and learn about it and be 

open to it. And things like that.

Now, another thing that I think we touched on, 

and it's something that, that I've been really 

good at. is not holding back because of my age, because of the number. 

Because it's so easy and I've 

done it. I've done it myself. I mean, I can remember a group ride starting in the spring. We do, we do these once a week group 

rides in Durango. with [01:26:00] some, 

some really strong athletes. And I remember doing a group ride in the spring, I think I was and, and 

just getting my ass kicked by riders 

that the year before I could hang with, you know, and I was doing much better in that ride. and I remember coming into my mind as well. Okay.

You know, you're 50, you know, this is 

what, you know, age is what's doing this to you, know, and it's easy to use that as an excuse. 

You know, and fortunately, 

know, I, I awakened to the fact, no, I'm, I'm not going to accept that. I'm going to 

In spite of just getting my ass kicked, I'm going to believe 

that I can still improve and that it's not just age and age is not going to hold me back, know, 

and it's interesting.

It happened recently. 

I did a gravel race in Ukiah last month, miles, 6, 000 feet of [01:27:00] climbing. I had been 

in Arizona for a month before that. So I had, 

had put in. Yeah, I was training focused on this event uh, I performed 

poorly in that event for 

what my expectations were. And granted, my expectations were too high, but, uh, you know, I, I, I signed up as 

a pro, there was 35 pro 

elite racers and I was 19th. Out of 35, but I feel I'm capable of doing 

better than that. Now I didn't prove it. The only way to 

know if I'm capable of doing better than that in the next event, you know, finishing in a higher percentage of, of the pro 

field is, is if I actually 

do it. So I had to come away from that event thinking, okay, you know, you're going to be 

70, you know, maybe this is the new reality. 

And the truth is it may be [01:28:00] the reality, but I've got to get rid of 

that way of thinking if I'm going to find out if it's going to be 

different and I'm capable of doing more than that. You know what I mean? So I, I am going to, I'll be doing obviously, you know, 

more races this year and I hope to improve. 

on, on that finish comparatively, if you know what I mean, but, it's gotta be a 

mindset of that's not 

the reality, if it is, know what I'm saying? In order to find out if it's not, I've got to, 

you know, in 

again and, uh, and, and, See if I'm capable of examining what my fitness was in that event and see 

if I can improve on it. And one thing, the week 

up to that event, my training was going really well a week before I got a cold. So I had to back off my training one 

week into it. But [01:29:00] theoretically, you know, 

backing off the week leading up to the race shouldn't hurt as far as your preparation. And I did, I felt fine day of the race, but you 

know, maybe the cold was affecting me. And, uh, 

maybe that's just this, the performance I had in me at the time. Anyway, but do

Kush: Net. 

Uh, thank 

you.

Ned: attitude towards it?

Kush: Yeah. And, and that is what I'm really, you seem to have this 

really healthy relationship with performance 

where you spoke about not being 

fixated on those metrics. 

So a lot of us, you know, who have been doing, 

let's say a sport for a while, you get to some point 

where, again, you might start, uh, not being able to 

perform with the same 

level of technical competence.

And sometimes 

a lot of people will stop a [01:30:00] sport because 

they can't do it at that level, right? What advice 

would you give to people who, 

who want to continue finding that joy in their 

sport, but can't quite 

reconcile? Of that change in performance. 

Ned: Oh, I don't know. I mean, you have to accept that 

you are going to lose your level of fitness and your level of technical ability as you grow older, it's just going to happen, 

trying to achieve your maximum ability, 

For your age, that, that means that you can't be restrained by the number. Okay. And 

mentally you, you can't be constrained. It's 

inevitable that it's going to happen.

I mean, I'm training now. I was thinking of it just, you know, on, on my ride the other day, I'll do rides that when I was younger, 

I would improve [01:31:00] from them nowadays, it doesn't seem like 

I'm improving, you know, I'm doing these rides and, and in spite of the fact that I've been training, I'm not. I don't have the 

momentum in my training and it is, 

is being constrained. I'm sure, of course, by age, it's only natural. So I have to look at, at the different, 

know, modalities. Is it, 

you know, sleep is one, it's different types of recovery. Um, nutrition is going to be important for sure, as you get older and you want to improve. You 

just look at the different ways to maximize. Being 

able to do whatever you can for your age, not letting that number restrain you. And to be honest, for sure, I 

am not as good technically 

as I was. I ride with, uh, some young guys and it's really important not to chase them too hard. 

Right? Because one thing [01:32:00] that'll really slow down 

your, your building fitness is throwing yourself on the ground and hurt yourself, know, and, and it's really important not to have too much 

machismo, 

you're mountain bike riding, mountain bike racing, uh, getting hurt isn't doing you any good, And I mean, 

it can really set you back. So, um, 

So it's important to stay within your ability, yet at the same time, push the envelope of your 

abilities a little bit and, and 

use bike setup. Nowadays, bikes are pretty complicated, So knowing how to set up your suspension, you know, 

how wide do you want your handlebars? What kind of air 

pressure? You can really improve your ability by learning how to properly set up your equipment. So, uh, another 

thing is vision, right? I need glasses now. I ride 

[01:33:00] with prescription glasses. So having the right, the right lens for the certain conditions and having the right prescription, uh, 

to maximize your ability to 

see stuff.

That's one of the things I noticed for sure that is holding me back is, is my vision in, uh. in mountain biking. 

So, uh, so it's something, you know, I 

work on and I try and learn about a lot with, uh, you know, ophthalmologists and my connection at Oakley, 

knowing

Kush: Very nice.

Ned: and 

stuff like that.

Kush: Ned, I, yeah, I have to say that I, I 

love this mindset you have, which is 

obviously you, you recognize 

the aging process, but you 

continue being curious and exploring ways 

in which you can use, Uh, 

mindset, but also [01:34:00] tools, techniques, 

experts 

to help you continue being out there, doing your best. 

So any of your hard one, 

let's say strategies towards, um, let's 

begin with off the bike 

training, right?

So what are some of the things you're doing 

that have worked for you when it comes to, let's say 

mobility, Cross training and body work.

Ned: Well, for sure cross training has benefited me, you know, it's helped because I come 

from a running background, you know, and then doing 

some triathlon. So, so the run, bike, swim. is cross training I'm doing. Cycling, 

mountain biking is better than road 

cycling, but, but cycling can build a very specific, uh, [01:35:00] kind of 

athlete with, certain underdeveloped muscles and certain overdeveloped muscles, right?

I mean, you just think 

of it,

Kush: Are you talking about the, the, the, talking about a friend of mine who's a cyclist calls herself having the T Rex physique?

Ned: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's especially important as you get 

older, right? Because, um, 

sarcopenia, I believe that's the right term for it, which is muscle wasting with age 

as you, as you make less, you know, human growth 

hormone and testosterone. So you need to stimulate those muscles to keep them 

going.

So, but the same thing applies to 

when you crash. If you're more flexible. And, uh, 

and you have more upper body strength, you're 

able to, um, you know, withstand more force. If, if your upper 

body is stronger, if also, if you know how to crash, 

if you have more flexibility and mobility, [01:36:00] know, you don't, you don't just hit the 

ground pound, you know, maybe you, you roll out of it and 

stuff and, and doing a bit of tumbling and, uh, 

Back in the day, even when we used to pre, 

you know, in, in the off season train from mountain biking, we used to do some tumbling, kind of some, 

crash avoidance things. You know, some crash avoidance 

can be balanced drills, so you balance on your bike. A lot of crashes 

happen and where people get injured 

is when, uh, they've, they're stalled out, right? On a 

climb or, uh, you know, you're trying to 

make it over a log, get stalled out and before you have time to 

pull your foot out of a clip. You fall over, 

you know, you fall over, you hit your shoulder, you break your collarbone, you put your arm out, you break your wrist. 

So, uh, so being able to balance 

on the bike. So doing balance drills on the bike is one of the simplest ways to improve. 

mean, you can do it in your [01:37:00] driveway. You can do it 

in, in, you know, in a grass. where you, you know, if you're 

worried about falling over doing a balance drill, you take your feet 

off of the, out of the clips and you just practice balancing. It's amazing 

how quickly you can improve with some practice 

of balance. Just takes a little patient. I try and do, uh, 

drills where I, see how 

tight of a circle I can ride. you have to be going super 

slow, like almost no speed at all. And 

you're pedaling and you're doing a tight circle and you have to balance. The thing about the 

bicycle, people say to me, Oh, 

I have a really hard time riding tight switchbacks. And that's because you have to 

ride them slow. In a, on a bicycle, when 

your wheels are moving, you have a gyroscopic effect, it keeps you upright. The slower 

you're going, the less gyroscopic movement, the more you have to 

actively balance the bike. [01:38:00] So, that's when you do a tight 

switchback, you have no movement of the wheels, 

so you have to actually balance, actively balance the bike, while you're trying to 

turn, while you're trying to brake, there's a lot of things going 

on.

So, you want to make balance second nature. And that can help you in 

a lot of crash situations. So, 

things like that, know, flexibility for when you crash, so you don't get injured, 

balance to prevent yourself from crashing. 

Upper body strength is super important because if you're not If you get like 

my, one of my biggest problems as a cyclist is 

tightness knots and pain in my upper back between my shoulder 

blades. And it's, it's, uh, you know, 

as you're constantly hunched over, you know, you're, you're, the back is 

kind of hyper extended. Your shoulders are rolled 

forward. You know, it's a. typical posture. So 

doing [01:39:00] exercises that open up, 

you know, where you use your back and it opens up your chest and things like that. A 

great one I like to do is when I swim, I always throw 

in some backstroke, know, because it's, it's the opposite of what you're doing cycling. 

It feels like it's the opposite of the crawl. It opens your back. It opens your 

chest and it opens your back. It Pulls your shoulders back and stuff like that.

So I look at exercises that are kind of the opposite, 

exercises of the, of the muscles you're overusing cycling.

Kush: Ned, what I love about your approach is that it is so, 

let's say beneficial for those of us, 

you know, who may hate, uh, going to the gym or even rolling out 

their yoga mat because sound like you've been able 

to. incorporate mobility, balance 

and strength work in the sports 

that you enjoy doing [01:40:00] already. So they became, they become 

kind of less of a burden.

And maybe there's a lesson here that 

there are ways we can explore integrating these types of 

drills into our sports, where we don't 

have to go too much away or against the grain to do those. 

if besides, besides these things, uh, if you had to 

give one piece of advice to someone in their fifties or 

sixties who wants to keep performing at a high level, what would that be? 

Ned: One piece of advice. 

That's a good question. I'm, I'm a little bit stumped that they, you know, 

there's a, a lot of advice. 

I think I've managed to, to, to 

keep momentum and stay fit because I do things that 

I enjoy. You know, and I 

don't, I don't overdo it. for instance, one thing I [01:41:00] need to be doing is longer rides. Okay. And I, I'm just, I'm, 

I'm, uh, just verbalizing 

as, as I'm trying to think here. uh, I don't do them because I have. 

First of all, I have a short attention span, I think. So after, after a couple hours, I 

I'm ready to go home. I'm hungry, I'm ready for 

a cappuccino. I also have, have issues like, 

uh, arthritis in my hands. 

So I become uncomfortable on longer rides. So, so 

I need to figure out, I think you need to look 

at what things are holding you back. And how to mitigate them. Okay. 

Maybe that that's what I'm learning towards because for me, 

I need to be doing some three, three and a half hour rides when I had a poor 

performance. In this recent gravel 

race. Uh, I think one of the reasons is I'm not 

doing enough longer rides. What's [01:42:00] keeping me 

from doing longer rides? It's pain in my hands. It's different 

discomfort. Another problem is I think I'm 

going too hard earlier in the ride so that, you know, 

by the time it gets to the three hours, I'm, 

you know, I don't have enough energy left to do the longer rides. 

so I think you need to 

look at what's holding you back figure out how to 

mitigate it. to start these longer rides slower. 

need to maybe change my position on the bike to where I'm more upright 

and have less. pressure on 

my, on my hands, which are starting to bug me after long rides. 

maybe it's more padding on the handlebars, 

a different position. what 

people can do is look at what's holding them back 

and don't accept it, out how to mitigate it 

and work through it.

Right. And then I've tried to give an example of, 

of one of the things that's holding me back. [01:43:00] There's longer rides and, 

I have to figure out how to, uh, 

to do that regardless of the limitations.

Kush: Totally makes sense is to be a little bit more self analytical 

about one's performance and 

find ways to combat them. Um, Ned, uh, just coming on to some of some 

final questions. Uh, taking, taking a lot of your time. 

What is, okay. So I call this the Asia's 

athlete session. What is 

something you wish you knew earlier about longevity in sports? 

Ned: I I think, uh, fueling, I, I think it's, it's 

interesting. I used to, uh, 

I more focused on carbo loading back in the day than I was 

with, uh, [01:44:00] with getting quality 

protein. So I, I, I think, uh, nutrition and. Being more 

knowledgeable about nutrition than 

I am now. Um, and also fueling as you, as you ride. One thing they're learning about these days 

in racing is the amount of carbohydrates 

that, that athletes are able to absorb. So I, I think that, uh, something I could have learned 

when I was racing that, and it could have improved 

my performance is better quality fueling. Um, and, and eating better. And now I'm more, more 

cognizant of the 

nutrition I need. For sure, hydration is a big one. I think that, uh, 

I would, I raced and trained a 

lot when I was not as well hydrated as I should have been. And I think it, it affected my [01:45:00] performance.

Kush: Talking of hydration, did you add any supplements to your water? Sugar.

Ned: Well, it's interesting. I carry two water bottles. I'll carry one with plain water. And then, yeah, I'll use one that has a, uh, 

an electrolyte 

mix in it. And, uh, one thing I was finding out is that I was getting cavities. I was using, like, an electrolyte 

with sugar mixture. uh, 

I was At a late age, I was getting cavities and my, my dentist was like, you know, what are you doing? It's not usual 

for guys your age to be getting cavities. And I, I would 

train with a, uh, with an electrolyte mixture with sugar in it. And, uh, I, I think 

that dry mouth 

with, uh, electrolytes and, uh, You know, salt and [01:46:00] whatever the pH level is can give you cavities. So, 

so what I would do is, you know, 

drink electrolytes and then I would drink the plain water afterwards and kind of rinse my mouth and swallow it. uh, that 

would help not to have that, that sugar and, 

acidity, acidity in my mouth giving me, uh, cavities. I'm not sure if that was a question you asked, but it, 

it was an interesting thing I learned that, uh, 

I counteracted with, still wanting the electrolytes, but not wanting to affect my health, my, the health of my teeth.

Kush: No, that is super useful actually because, um, I also use Electrolytes when I'm out on long climbing days, but I will not always 

remember to rinse my mouth after. 

And yeah, there's the residual sugar would maybe lead to cavities down the line if 

I was [01:47:00] not careful. So I think, I think that 

bit of extra bonus advice is, is well heeded.

Ned, you seem quite dialed about your diet. 

Any other like Hard 

won things you've learned about supplementation. I mean, the olive oil one is, is, is very interesting. Anything else?

Ned: Yeah, I think quality oils, well, recovery drinks. uh, I, I 

think, and I definitely do it now is after 

an intense ride, you know, when I've done intervals or I've done a, uh, you know, a hard group ride 

and I really had to dig deep. You know, when you're, you're 

doing that kind of muscle strain, you know, that creates muscle damage, it's really 

important to get a quality 

protein, drink or food afterwards.

And a drink is the 

best way to take in that protein. And so I do protein shakes. 

Now, right when I get back from a, [01:48:00] from a hard ride and it's not, you know, some people 

do like low calorie protein shakes, but I 

definitely don't have a problem with calories and I also want to replenish some of the carbohydrates. So, so my 

protein shakes have, you know, have fruit and 

carbohydrates in them as well. But getting a quality protein source that's easy to 

absorb. I think it's really important. And, and the 

older you get the, the. Protein for recovery, I think, I think is more important.

Kush: Great to know. And then, yeah, just final question, Ned, to round it all off. Yeah. When you look back at 

your, this long and illustrious career, 

the races, the victories, and yeah, even the longevity, what are you most, uh, personally proud of. 

Ned: I think Xterra is, uh, [01:49:00] switching 

to triathlon figuring out 

is, uh, is something that I'm, I'm, I'm proud of because of the challenge. I mean, triathlon 

is, is really interesting 

and challenging because you've got three different sports. Figuring out the techniques on three different sports. 

figuring out how to recover when 

combining different sports and then figuring out how to 

from one of those sports to the next, you 

know, I mean, you're fatigued, you go through the transition area and then you've got to switch to a whole different activity. 

I think the challenge of that really kind of 

kept me fascinated and engaged with endurance sports. When I went from mountain bike racing and having been successful mountain bike racing, 

and then great to have a challenge and a 

complicated challenge. So when I kind of. [01:50:00] Improved, went, you know, Xterra from third to second to first and, and 

won some big events. Um, 

because it's hard, it's also, uh, rewarding and that,

Kush: Ned, 

it's been amazing. Absolutely. I mean, remarkable how, yeah, you made that switch and you were again, so 

yeah, successful 

in something that was difficult and new to you. Ned, it's been amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on to Ageless Athlete today.

Ned: Yeah, great. It's been great being here, Kush, and some, some great questions that really stimulated me thinking about, you know, what's helped me over the years. 

Kush: ~Amazing. Well, uh, obviously, Yeah, you had some genetics to your advantage, but then there was, I am positive, an enormous amount of hard work and discipline that went into your training, your lifestyle beyond that early discovery of your, of your talent. But when you were in your prime, Nat, What was your training like?~

~Like, like, like how brutal were those sessions? ~

Ned: ~I am in my prime. What do you mean?~

Kush: ~Sorry, of course, of course. Let me just, let me just be very like, uh, you know, specific. Let's say those days when you were winning those world championships.~

Ned: ~What would I, what I would do? I'm, I'm self coached. Uh, I've never really had a coach. I've learned a lot from coaches and, uh, you know, I'm a voracious, a voracious appetite for coaching information, you know, Joe Friel is, I think does a great job of, uh, of breaking down the, the training process. So I, I, you know, I read a lot of, of different stuff about coaching, but what I would do in those days, was a lot of, uh, climbing courses, you know, and it would, the courses were, you know, You know, a lot of the, it was decided on the climbs living in Durango, I would do is, is drive to, uh, a place in the San Juan mountains where they have these very steep, uh, mining roads. You know, four wheel drive mining roads and, and that way, you know, when, when it's a road, it's not like a trail, but when it's, it's a road and it's super steep and long, you can just focus on the fitness, right? And it's so steep. I mean, it's hard to actually stay on the bike and, and it's at high altitude, you know, and some of these races were at altitude. many of them were an altitude skiers like Mammoth or, uh, or Big Bear, California and stuff. So, so I would go and do repeats on these, these climbs where they're so steep you could barely stay on the bike. So a lot of pressure on your legs and, uh, and in thin air and stuff. And those, those, those are the kind of training sessions I would do. put myself through, but it's interesting. I, I was doing really well and maybe dominating a lot of these style races in mountain bikes. And then a guy, a young kid named John Tomac jumped in and Tomac was a, a BMX champion, and he started mountain bike racing when he was about 18. And all of a sudden, this guy went downhill so fast, everybody else kind of had to recalibrate. And it was like, cause he was also a strong climber, but, uh, he could gain so much time on the downhill technical stuff. forced everybody, of the, the rest of us racers to go faster downhill. We had to improve our technical skills. So it wasn't enough just to practice my climbing and stuff like that. I had to, uh, figure out, and a lot of, you know, going fast downhill is how you set the bike up. as well. But, uh, so I, I had to improve. I had to essentially take more risk, go downhill faster and think more about my downhill technique. stuff to improve in order to stay competitive with John Tomac.~

Kush: ~Yeah, for sure. I mean, mountain biking is this, you know, Maybe this kaleidoscopic discipline, right? Like there's so many challenges that are coming to you. Yeah, not only it's, it's interesting. Like I had a Tinker who I was on the podcast and Tinker also was like an early, let's say BMX prodigy. And he talked about how he has to train so much in his case, so much for endurance.~

~Because, because for him, perhaps the technical elements of like , navigating. Um, challenging terrain are easier, but for the rest of us, it is being able to acquire the technical skills and maybe the bike know how to be able to learn the technical elements. So yes, I, your, your training was, I guess, yeah, so all encompassing. yeah, given these training demands, net, um, how did you. like balance the line between like training hard enough, right? Like you were training so much to stay competitive, but not overtraining and burning out, which is, yeah, which is so important for keeping that fire alive. Because like we discussed, you know, you were not getting paid in gold bricks, you know, you were like doing it because you love the sport so much.~

Ned: ~Yeah, I mean, that, that's the key, right? Finding that stress recovery ratio suits you. Different for everybody. And it's different for people as you go throughout the season, right? When you're in less, you know, you're not as in good of shape early in the season. You know, you're going to need more recovery from the stresses of racing as you, as you get stronger and stronger, you can stress yourself harder. Uh, but your stress ratio, stress recovery ratio changes. And that's why it's good to have a coach because a coach can have an outside view of what's happening with you. You know, they can, they can take the data of, okay, are you sick? People. Over trained because they become obsessive about their training, they, Oh, maybe I'm sick.~

~Well, I still have to get the miles in, you know, so instead of recovering from their sickness, they just dig themselves a hole, know, they, they continue to train hard. They don't recover from the sickness. Uh, when you're traveling, uh, you know, people get to a race and I, I saw it all the time. People would travel to Europe, arrive at a race and they're used to putting in a certain amount of hours. On the bike. And as soon as they get there, they, you know, they just continue their, their normal training regimen and they don't. They don't allow for the stress of the travel and so it is you having being able to take a look at yourself and see how recovered you are and of course there's all kinds of signals, you know, there's there's heart rate and and, uh, things of that nature that you can monitor.~

~And that's one thing a coach takes an outside look, especially with young kids. Young kids are, are definitely, uh, at risk of training too hard cause they got too much energy and they're hard to hold back. Right. So that's where young kids can definitely benefit from a coach, but I've always done pretty well at training hard, but not overtraining, having, having that right. stress recovery ratio. So for whatever reason, I wasn't an obsessive trainer. I don't put in a ton of volume. I still don't put in a ton of volume, but uh, I kind of embrace the intensity. I like to train with intensity. So I think that's good, especially as you get older. think that intensity is important from what I've read, maintaining. a high percentage of your VO2 capacity. It's important to train with intensity. That's the kind of training that I embrace and, uh, not doing a ton of volume. If you do volume and intensity, it's, it's easier to get into, uh, that, uh, situation where you're overtraining. Problem with overtraining is it's all about building momentum in your training, right?~

~I like to think of it as momentum. You're building training and and you're gaining momentum towards improving and all those little things. You get sick, you lose your momentum. You get injured, you lose your momentum. You overtrain, you have to back off and lose your momentum. So, catching these things early, maybe it's a sore knee. Right? knee is sore. When you're a kid, you train through it. Your body heals itself much quicker. When you're older, if you got a sore knee or, or upper back problem or, you know, something, you have to address it quickly before it affects the momentum in your training. So, I don't know. The holistic look, it's worked well for me, however, I've done it.~

Kush: ~Net, I am, yeah, I'm absolutely boggled that you were the world's best mountain cyclist. multiple times and you did not have a formal coach. Was that a conscious decision? Like, did you learn some truths about yourself that made you maybe realize that, wait a second, like I, I understand myself, my gifts, my opportunities, and I can do this myself.~

Ned: ~Well, I had to, I had to figure out how to do it myself or, or get a coach. I don't like the structure of somebody else telling me how to train. And, uh, I saw other people, you know, who had coaches and I think it worked well for them, but they would have to go from one coach to the next before they found a coach that really worked well with them. You know, they, they had a rapport with and stuff. And I learned a lot from, from, uh, my teammates who had coaches. You know, and talking about what their training program was and how they were dealing with their coach and, and, it was interesting to, to see again, it was about absorbing a lot of information about coaching and then applying it to my own situation, you know, where do I, where do I need to improve? Constantly trying to figure out to improve. You know, taking responsibility for mistakes I made, you know, whether it's mechanical, whether it's going out too fast in a race, uh, You know, I do an event and afterwards you might listen to guys at the finish line and there's, Oh, you know, I had a flat tire.~

~Oh, uh, you know, I bonked, you know, all these excuses, you have to take responsibility for everything that happened to you in the race. You had a flat tire. It's, you know, you didn't properly set up your equipment. You're riding with too low a pressure and too fast for the trail conditions, whatever you crashed.~

~That's your own fault. That's, that's not luck when you crash. It's not bad luck when you crash. You know, your own luck in those situations. So, so that, that's just been, uh, I'm fascinated with the whole coaching process and, and developing fitness. And so I've been a of a student and, and still am of coaching information.~

Kush: ~Again, that I am just fascinated that you were able to, um, Coach yourself. Um, so, these days, there is just so much information out there on all of these outdoor sports. Uh, on coaching and learning and, you know, tips and tricks. Uh, there's social media, there's books, there's YouTube, there are podcasts like this one.~

~So, I'm For the everyday athlete, again not like a, like a world championship, uh, competitor, just the everyday athlete, how does one know where to turn to for the most useful, applicable information?~

Ned: ~Well, You're right. There is so much information, and I think a lot of it's good information. Um, you know, I think Joe Friel has, he's written a book, Fast After 50. uh, to me, he lays out the steps for coaching. I think one thing you need to under do, understand is you don't just do what some coach advises. You have to understand what the effects of that training are. have on you, you know, so to me, I think a good coach would explain to even a young writer. It's not just, okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to, you know, do these intervals on this day, you know, and this is a rest day and this is going to be an endurance day. You actually explain to the athlete by doing intervals on this day, you know, these style of intervals. it's going to improve this. System, you know, and that's why you're going to need this amount of recovery and we will need to determine, you know, we're not just going to automatically do hard training the next day because it's a interval day.~

~We're going to determine whether you're recovered enough. You know, it's a malleable process that's adapted to the athlete and how their needs are changing. So to me, a, a coaching, uh, a coach who explains what the different workouts are going to do for you and the different recovery things. So you understand it, you know, and then it's much easier for the, the athlete to follow through, you know, on his instructions, but, but people who just describe the whole, explain the whole process.~

~I think, I think that's what you should look for. in coaching information, how they justify it, not just them telling you what to do to get better.~

Kush: ~Any other tips on being able to, let's say, wade through all that noise, uh, at a high level and finding out, uh, what might apply to that particular person? Because, you know, we are all different and even you had to, likely, calibrate, learn from your mistakes and fine tune what worked for you.~

~Sure.~

Ned: ~I think you can take all this coaching information and apply the workouts to yourself, again, it has to be personalized to you, how you're recovering day to day, right? You, you can't just say, okay, today is supposed to be, I'm supposed to be doing, you know, this style of workout, you have to pay attention to how you're feeling. Whether it's heart rate, I mean, I can feel it in my legs. Say I go out, I'm going to do some intervals today. I'm going to do some hill repeats because, you know, this, I'm, you know, yesterday was a recovery day. I'm, I'm training for this specific race. It has a similar type of climbing and, uh, I'll go out. will allow myself one, say it's, you know, there are three minute helper pleas.~

~I'll do one. I don't feel so good. I don't turn around and decide I'm going to do an easy ride. I at least do another one cause sometimes it's hard to, you know, it takes a little while to open up. You know, the first one, I may feel really crappy and sluggish, you know, and then the second one I start to open up. Now, if. If the quality of the intervals I'm doing, if that second one, you know, gets even worse than the first one and I, and I can feel that my legs are sluggish and sore and stuff like that, then I will abandon that workout and, uh, you know, do a, an easy recovery ride. uh, active recovery and, you know, shoot to come back maybe the next day and attempt to do those intervals.~

~So, regardless of the information you're, you're getting, you have to apply it to how you're feeling day to day and how you're recovering. I mean, if, which, uh, yeah. A lot of people just beat themselves up, you know, if, and they're just digging a hole of over training. And one thing to, to really. Realize is that you don't get better from training hard. You get better from recovering you train hard, right? You train hard and you recover and your body builds itself up stronger than before you train hard. So recovery is just as important as the you know, as the, the stress you're putting on your, on your body,~

Kush: ~Yeah. And I think,~

Ned: ~how important recovery is.~

Kush: ~yeah. And I mean, that, that seems to be echoed universally across all, all athletic disciplines, the importance of recovery. You mentioned being able to listen to yourself and being able to adapt when something is working, which is not working. Were you an, are you like a, like a, like a meticulous, like diary, like a diary?~

~or a training journal keeper, or are you just so good at learning by feel, and remembering, and then adapting?~

Ned: ~It's really more by feel. I mean, I, I don't keep a training diary now, although that's not true. I don't keep a track. I don't write anything down now, but I, all of my workouts are on Strava. So that's, that's the beauty of Strava is that, uh, you know, it's, it's way, it's, uh, way more detailed than, uh, the, uh, I used to write down in a training diary when I was, when I was racing, so I, I use Strava a lot to, uh, incentivize myself and. for intervals and stuff like that. I've used Strava since 2012, pretty much put all my rides on, on Strava. So I've got data going back all the way to 2012. And then there's all these segments that, you know, I can compare to. Over the years, how I've done or, or even throughout the season, which gives you a great idea of, of where you are in terms of fitness in the season. So, also become more meticulous about my sleep. I use an Oura ring because I realize how important sleep is. And as I've gotten older, I've struggled to get quality sleep more, which I think tends to happen with age. With older people, they wake up in the middle of the night more and have, you know, have a hard time quality sleep.~

~I used to think that, uh, Okay, I've got eight hours, you know, I'm going to bed now and I'm getting up now. So I've had eight hours and that's a good amount of sleep. But with the Oura Ring, I realized that, uh, you know, my sleep efficiency, I'm actually sleeping, you know, maybe six and a half hours a night. For the eight hours that I'm spending in bed. So, uh, so it's interesting and it Let you realize, you know the different things maybe it's coffee Maybe it's you know, too much screen time before you go to bed eating too late sugar too late things like that so you can dial in your Your sleep quality. And that's, uh, that's one thing I've become more meticulous about.~

Kush: ~Ned, you know, you might be self coached, but it sounds like you have been quite, uh, astute about adapting and embracing. New technology as it, as it comes in. And, I mean, are you an ambassador for Strava or, uh, Ura, any of these, uh, tools?~

Ned: ~but I, I should be, I actually pay the Strava I pay the~

Kush: ~What?~

Ned: ~Strava~

Kush: ~No way! I'm shocked!~

Ned: ~asked them about it. I, you know, with, gives me a, a free, uh, a, a free membership. But,~

Kush: ~Okay.~

Ned: ~no, I haven't pursued Strava about, about being an ambassador. I did, I do. Uh, a huge believer in Strava. It's been, it's been great for me, for my training.~

~Absolutely.~

Kush: ~Strava is listening, they need to, uh, at the very least, waive your, your premium membership free. so, I want to ask you a little bit about you dominated mountain biking, but then at some point you decided to jump into triathlons. You know, you're going from a sport where you are basically hammering the pedals, um, to now having to like, include swimming and maybe one of the earliest sports running. what were the hardest part about that shift for you?~

Ned: ~Uh, it's a good question. And, and it's, complicated. I mean, I actually did some triathlon early in the days. I went to San Diego state and, uh, when I was in San Diego, the early days of triathlon. I did some triathlons at that time. I was a runner. I ran in high school and college, so I had a running background. And, uh, I was, I, when I was in San Diego, I used to love to body surf. I was never surfed with a surfboard, but I did a lot of body surfing. I, I wasn't a competitive swimmer when I grew up. So that was the hardest part about getting into triathlon was, uh, was figuring out the swim. That's, that's been difficult.~

~That's a, a tough sport to take on, you know, when you're learning it as an adult, but it, the reason I was still fit. And, uh, I think in my prime, even though I think in 96, when I retired from the world cup, I was 40 years old. drugs had come into the mountain bike race scene. And, uh, it was quite evident and it started in about 94. and I, and I'm not just, about this, you know, it turned out in the future, you know, a lot of the guys that, uh, We were racing against, were busted or admitted taking drugs, but mostly, mostly from becoming positive. They had no test for EPO EPO had come over from the roadside. Jerome Chiodi was one of the first guys. Uh, who, who was popped and admitted taking drugs. He had come from the Festina team on, on the roadside. So, so road cycling, the drug issues they had, mountain biking was popular. There was money in it. And some of those athletes started coming over. And, uh, in 94, I think I won three World Cups in 94. In 95, I could barely finish in the top five, even the top 10. It changed really quickly. So, uh, so I was, was, uh, fine with, uh, getting away from mountain biking. I didn't want to travel all over the world in the world cup to race against guys who were, know, who had an advantage from, from using EPO. So that was one of the reasons that it was, it was very frustrating to, an international mountain bike racer at that time. I saw the XTERRA triathlon and it was in Maui. Right? And, and it, I didn't, was just beginning in 96, which was the~

Kush: ~May I, may I, yeah, sorry, may I interrupt? Thanks for, uh, just putting a pin on, pin on that error where All of a sudden, you know, from dominating this, this sport, you faced this, uh, let's say unfair adversity because there were people who had, who were taking these, uh, uh, substances. Just, were people in Europe who you were competing with.~

~What was that culture shifting? I mean, you avoided it. drugs, but did you see other, uh, fellow athletes get tempted and fall prey to EPO or other, uh, enhancers?~

Ned: ~I wouldn't, definitely. Now they weren't, they weren't talking about it with me, right? I mean, if you're smart and you're taking drugs, you're not going to talk about your fellow about it with your fellow athletes, but you could see, you could see the change the athletes and, and you can see it in a guy who is not young.~

~You know, when, if a guy is 18, 19 years old, you know, year to year, he might make some, some big gains in his performances, but if you have a guy that's, you know, been racing for five or six years and he's, you know, He's years old and, you know, he's finishing in a, in a certain place in the pack, he may move up a little bit, but he's not all of a sudden moving onto the podium or winning races. And, and this was happening with, with, with guys at that time. And it was, it was pretty obvious. And, uh, I, I definitely saw it. Yeah, without, uh, I mean, I, I would never cast on anybody and, and say that I think they're taking drugs and, and name that person without knowing, because that's, you know, you would never want anyone to do that about you, right? If you're not taking drugs and they say, Oh, Because people, I'm sure they think that about me because I, I did very well as a, as a master's athlete, you know, racing in the pro category.~

~So there's no doubt people think that, that, uh, You know, I was taking drugs. Plus I was, I was racing at a time when there was a lot of drugs in the sport. uh, I was fortunate to be in mountain biking and have success when there was no drugs in the sport. And likewise, then in Xterra, you know, which was a new sport and it wasn't a lot of incentive for people to be taking drugs and, and cheating cause there wasn't a lot of money in it.~

~But, but, uh, I was fortunate. And, you know, Dave Weins. And Tomac and I would discuss, you know, would be at races that we used to be competitive at and we'd say to each other, thank God we were in the sport and had some success at it this started happening, know, and, and since then, to be clear, I, I think the sport has, is quite clean. It's really been cleaned up since the, you know, advancement of, of, you know, highly technical testing and EPO tests and, you know, the professional cyclists today have to go so much testing out of competition testing. You know, they have what they call the blood passport, which monitors your. You know, your blood values year to year and super invasive, you know, and really a pain in the ass for the athletes, but it's, you know, it's one of the costs of, of trying to keep clean. And I think there's more testing and cycling than in any other endurance sport, and partly because of their history. So I think it's good now. And yeah, I definitely saw people go down that, that, that road and in the ways that they justified it. Um, Similar to Lance Armstrong and, and some of the guys that were popped there, you know, they were saying, Oh, it's just a level playing field because everyone's taking drugs. And that's how a lot of guys started to justify it in mountain biking, right?~

~They saw, oh, these guys who were winning are taking drugs. So that's what I have to do to win, you know, and uh, It was hard. It was a very hard time. Uh, you know, in cycling, hard to stay motivated. really unfortunate for young riders coming up who had to make that decision. If they wanted to be competitive, they would, have to consider cheating.~

Kush: ~And it sounds like that, you know, you kind of astutely avoided making this difficult. I'm guessing if everybody else is. Taking enhancers. I mean, obviously there must have been temptation, but you chose this third route, which is you skipped to another sport entirely. Sound like you were, you know, you, you had accomplished so much success and you were intrigued, maybe fascinated by the world of triathlon.~

~So kind of going back to learning a new sport. As an older individual, how difficult was it to learn swimming, for example, learn this whole new discipline and then become competitive in triathlons and being so successful in your 40s?~

Ned: ~Yeah. I w I was still motivated to, to perform, to get results. You know, when I was, uh, you know, I didn't think of myself as being 40 years old. I thought of myself as an athlete. Who's still had some potential, you know, I, what, I didn't think in those terms of. of age and oh, I'm 40. So, you know, I'm, I'm past my prime.~

~I actually wanted to prove that I still had potential, even though I could no longer win in those times at international mountain bike racing. the allure of Maui and something different and it being a off road triathlon uh, You know, I love trail running, you know, I've done trail running as cross training the whole time I was mountain biking, usually mainly in the off season, and I had a history of being a good climber.~

~I looked at this course in Maui and it had a massive climb in it, a ton of climbing in the mountain bike. I mean an XTERRA is a one mile swim, a 20 mile mountain bike and then a 10k run and the run was a kind of, not a ton of climbing, but challenging. It was a trail run, a technical trail run over rocks and sandy beaches and stuff like that.~

~So it was a, it was a hard run. especially after the, and the swim was in the ocean. So, so, uh, and all of those things and going to Maui, I wasn't sure that I was going to all of a sudden be, you know, switch over and become an exterior athlete. I was just doing the first one and I got third in the first one. I mean, I trained for it. Uh, I think it was in September. So I, I had some time to train. Running and swimming part. I was third to, uh, Mike pig and Jimmy Riccitello, you know, who are as established, uh, triathletes. And I thought, okay, third, I can, do this and they started an Xterra series after that. So, I mean, it's. I was really fortunate. It was, it was just the right time for me. And, and the Xterra series was in, you know, places like Hawaii. You finish with the, the Xterra and there you are in Hawaii, right? So obviously you stay and spend some time and it's, it was kind of cool. All my mountain bike races, generally I'm going to the mountains. And stuff. There's not too many beach venues. So, so the fact that I got third was incentive to, uh, to try and do better at it and the next year I was, uh, second. And then the third year I, I won the championships, the third and fourth year they had it, but then they had a whole series. So, so, uh, I was supported by specialized to, uh, kind of continue to race at the same time. I was an employee of Specialized working in, in sports marketing and, uh, product development too. So getting out there and racing, uh, it's an important part of sports marketing and, product development as well. I mean, Specialized has always used racing in all of its forms as a, as a major part of its product development, right?~

~Whether it's the Tour de France racers or the, you know, the Ironman racers. Triathlon, uh, cyclocross, mountain bike, they're all arms of the product development team.~

Kush: ~Net, you said something which I think is so, um, such, such a important mindset.~

~Let's say strategy, which is when you made your shift, it wasn't because, because you thought necessarily that, Hey, you were getting older and you were past your prime in one thing and you wanted to start something else. Your approach was, Hey, I want to start, I want to do this because this playing field has changed and I'm attracted to this other sport.~

~maybe going to Maui and getting the chance to recreate and like, obviously that beautiful, uh, place. And I think many people seem to not think about that, which is maybe getting older is an opportunity to, to, to get into something new. Um, I'm wondering what are maybe, um, some things that, um,~

~that an old athlete Can, can learn from, or just anybody who's maybe hitting 40 and over can learn from your experience on, on being able to begin something new with that excitement, with that gusto.~

Ned: ~So there's, there's a few things that come to mind here. I mean, one, you say, getting, getting into new sports, you, there's sports that are fun. And, and for instance, a sport I might like to try doing, right, is, I love the water. I'm not so sure I could get into surfing, but maybe kiteboarding there's to go out and experience and, and give it a chance and learn the sport. Don't be so frustrated. Don't get frustrated so easy. Right. and do it in a way that, uh, gradually get into the sport, get some instruction on it. Uh, when I had to learn to swim, trying to teach yourself to swim, that's, that's not the best way to go about it. Swimming is so technical. You have to get some expertise, have somebody evaluate your, your swim stroke.~

~You can't just, you know, because you're an accomplished athlete and you've got a lot of fitness, you just can't get in the pool and figure out swimming. I mean, so I, I had to get some guys to examine my stroke. uh, and, and work with me on improving my swimming. So I think if you're getting into a new sport, and I think if someone is going to get, they're not mountain biking now, get some instruction on mountain biking, don't just cry and go figure it out, because it's going to be frustrating. You know, if you fall off or you're slow or, and more dangerous if, if you're not careful, you know, at least, you know, look at videos on YouTube and, and read about it. So, so I would advise people when they get into a new sport to, to get into it more gradually and learn about it and be open to it. And things like that.~

~Now, another thing that I think we touched on, and it's something that, that I've been really good at. is not holding back because of my age, because of the number. Because it's so easy and I've done it. I've done it myself. I mean, I can remember a group ride starting in the spring. We do, we do these once a week group rides in Durango. with some, some really strong athletes. And I remember doing a group ride in the spring, I think I was and, and just getting my ass kicked by riders that the year before I could hang with, you know, and I was doing much better in that ride. and I remember coming into my mind as well. Okay.~

~You know, you're 50, you know, this is what, you know, age is what's doing this to you, know, and it's easy to use that as an excuse. You know, and fortunately, know, I, I awakened to the fact, no, I'm, I'm not going to accept that. I'm going to In spite of just getting my ass kicked, I'm going to believe that I can still improve and that it's not just age and age is not going to hold me back, know, and it's interesting.~

~It happened recently. I did a gravel race in Ukiah last month, miles, 6, 000 feet of climbing. I had been in Arizona for a month before that. So I had, had put in. Yeah, I was training focused on this event uh, I performed poorly in that event for what my expectations were. And granted, my expectations were too high, but, uh, you know, I, I, I signed up as a pro, there was 35 pro elite racers and I was 19th. Out of 35, but I feel I'm capable of doing better than that. Now I didn't prove it. The only way to know if I'm capable of doing better than that in the next event, you know, finishing in a higher percentage of, of the pro field is, is if I actually do it. So I had to come away from that event thinking, okay, you know, you're going to be 70, you know, maybe this is the new reality. And the truth is it may be the reality, but I've got to get rid of that way of thinking if I'm going to find out if it's going to be different and I'm capable of doing more than that. You know what I mean? So I, I am going to, I'll be doing obviously, you know, more races this year and I hope to improve. on, on that finish comparatively, if you know what I mean, but, it's gotta be a mindset of that's not the reality, if it is, know what I'm saying? In order to find out if it's not, I've got to, you know, in again and, uh, and, and, See if I'm capable of examining what my fitness was in that event and see if I can improve on it. And one thing, the week up to that event, my training was going really well a week before I got a cold. So I had to back off my training one week into it. But theoretically, you know, backing off the week leading up to the race shouldn't hurt as far as your preparation. And I did, I felt fine day of the race, but you know, maybe the cold was affecting me. And, uh, maybe that's just this, the performance I had in me at the time. Anyway, but do~

Kush: ~Net. Uh, thank you.~

Ned: ~attitude towards it?~

Kush: ~Yeah. And, and that is what I'm really, you seem to have this really healthy relationship with performance where you spoke about not being fixated on those metrics. So a lot of us, you know, who have been doing, let's say a sport for a while, you get to some point where, again, you might start, uh, not being able to perform with the same level of technical competence.~

~And sometimes a lot of people will stop a sport because they can't do it at that level, right? What advice would you give to people who, who want to continue finding that joy in their sport, but can't quite reconcile? Of that change in performance.~

Ned: ~Oh, I don't know. I mean, you have to accept that you are, you are going to lose your level of fitness and your level of technical ability as you grow older, it's just going to happen, trying to achieve your maximum ability, For your age, that, that means that you can't be restrained by the number. Okay. And mentally you, you can't be constrained. It's inevitable that it's going to happen.~

~I mean, I'm training now. I was thinking of it just, you know, on, on my ride the other day, I'll do rides that when I was younger, I would improve from them nowadays, it doesn't seem like I'm improving, you know, I'm doing these rides and, and in spite of the fact that I've been training, I'm not. I don't have the momentum in my training and it is, is being constrained. I'm sure, of course, by age, it's only natural. So I have to look at, at the different, know, modalities. Is it, you know, sleep is one, it's different types of recovery. Um, nutrition is going to be important for sure, as you get older and you want to improve. You just look at the different ways to maximize. Being able to do whatever you can for your age, not letting that number restrain you. And to be honest, for sure, I am not as good technically as I was. I ride with, uh, some young guys and it's really important not to chase them too hard. Right? Because one thing that'll really slow down your, your building fitness is throwing yourself on the ground and hurt yourself, know, and, and it's really important not to have too much machismo, uh, you're mountain bike riding, mountain bike racing, uh, getting hurt isn't doing you any good, And I mean, it can really set you back. So, um, So it's important to stay within your ability, yet at the same time, push the envelope of your abilities a little bit and, and use bike setup. Nowadays, bikes are pretty complicated, So knowing how to set up your suspension, you know, how wide do you want your handlebars? What kind of air pressure? You can really improve your ability by learning how to properly set up your equipment. So, uh, another thing is vision, right? I need glasses now. I ride with prescription glasses. So having the right, the right lens for the certain conditions and having the right prescription, uh, to maximize your ability to see stuff.~

~That's one of the things I noticed for sure that is holding me back is, is my vision in, uh. in mountain biking. So, uh, so it's something, you know, I work on and I try and learn about a lot with, uh, you know, ophthalmologists and my connection at Oakley, knowing~

Kush: ~Very nice.~

Ned: ~and stuff like that.~

Kush: ~Ned, I, yeah, I have to say that I, I love this mindset you have, which is obviously you, you recognize perhaps the aging process, but you continue being curious and exploring ways in which you can use, Uh, mindset, but also tools, techniques, experts to help you continue being out there, doing your best. So any of your hard one, let's say strategies towards, um, let's begin with off the bike training, right?~

~So what are some of the things you're doing that have worked for you when it comes to, let's say mobility, Cross training and body work.~

Ned: ~Well, for sure cross training has benefited me, you know, it's helped because I come from a running background, you know, and then doing some triathlon. So, so the run, bike, swim. is cross training I'm doing. Cycling, mountain biking is better than road cycling, but, but cycling can build a very specific, uh, kind of athlete with, with, uh, you know, certain underdeveloped muscles and certain overdeveloped muscles, right?~

~I mean, you just think of it,~

Kush: ~Are you talking about the, the, the, talking about a friend of mine who's a cyclist calls herself having the T Rex physique?~

Ned: ~Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's especially important as you get older, right? Because, um, sarcopenia, I believe that's the right term for it, which is muscle wasting with age as you, as you make less, you know, human growth hormone and testosterone. So you need to stimulate those muscles to keep them going.~

~So, but the same thing applies to when you crash. If you're more flexible. And, uh, and you have more upper body strength, you're able to, um, you know, withstand more force. If, if your upper body is stronger, if also, if you know how to crash, if you have more flexibility and mobility, know, you don't, you don't just hit the ground pound, you know, maybe you, you roll out of it and stuff and, and doing a bit of tumbling and, uh, Back in the day, even when we used to pre, you know, in, in the off season train from mountain biking, we used to do some tumbling, kind of some, crash avoidance things. You know, some crash avoidance can be balanced drills, so you balance on your bike. A lot of crashes happen and where people get injured is when, uh, they've, they're stalled out, right? On a climb or, uh, you know, you're trying to make it over a log, get stalled out and before you have time to pull your foot out of a clip. You fall over, you know, you fall over, you hit your shoulder, you break your collarbone, you put your arm out, you break your wrist. So, uh, so being able to balance on the bike. So doing balance drills on the bike is one of the simplest ways to improve. mean, you can do it in your driveway. You can do it in, in, you know, in a grass. where you, you know, if you're worried about falling over doing a balance drill, you take your feet off of the, out of the clips and you just practice balancing. It's amazing how quickly you can improve with some practice of balance. Just takes a little patient. I try and do, uh, drills where I, see how tight of a circle I can ride. you have to be going super slow, like almost no speed at all. And you're pedaling and you're doing a tight circle and you have to balance. The thing about the bicycle, people say to me, Oh, I have a really hard time riding tight switchbacks. And that's because you have to ride them slow. In a, on a bicycle, when your wheels are moving, you have a gyroscopic effect, it keeps you upright. The slower you're going, the less gyroscopic movement, the more you have to actively balance the bike. So, that's when you do a tight switchback, you have no movement of the wheels, so you have to actually balance, actively balance the bike, while you're trying to turn, while you're trying to brake, there's a lot of things going on.~

~So, you want to make balance second nature. And that can help you in a lot of crash situations. So, things like that, know, flexibility for when you crash, so you don't get injured, balance to prevent yourself from crashing. Upper body strength is super important because if you're not If you get like my, one of my biggest problems as a cyclist is tightness knots and pain in my upper back between my shoulder blades. And it's, it's, uh, you know, as you're constantly hunched over, you know, you're, you're, the back is kind of hyper extended. Your shoulders are rolled forward. You know, it's a. typical posture. So doing exercises that open up, you know, where you use your back and it opens up your chest and things like that. A great one I like to do is when I swim, I always throw in some backstroke, know, because it's, it's the opposite of what you're doing cycling. It feels like it's the opposite of the crawl. It opens your back. It opens your chest and it opens your back. It Pulls your shoulders back and stuff like that.~

~So I look at exercises that are kind of the opposite, exercises of the, of the muscles you're overusing cycling.~

Kush: ~Ned, what I love about your approach is that it is so, let's say beneficial for those of us, you know, who may hate, uh, going to the gym or even rolling out their yoga mat because sound like you've been able to. incorporate mobility, balance and strength work in the sports that you enjoy doing already. So they became, they become kind of less of a burden.~

~And maybe there's a lesson here that there are ways we can explore integrating these types of drills into our sports, where we don't have to go too much away or against the grain to do those. Um, So if besides, besides these things, uh, if you had to give one piece of advice to someone in their fifties or sixties who wants to keep performing at a high level, what would that be?~

Ned: ~One piece of advice. That's a good question. I'm, I'm a little bit stumped that they, you know, there's a, a lot of advice. So what I, I think I've managed to, to, to keep momentum and stay fit because I do things that I enjoy. You know, and I don't, I don't overdo it. Um, for, for instance, one thing I need to be doing is longer rides. Okay. And I, I'm just, I'm, I'm, uh, just verbalizing as, as I'm trying to think here. uh, I don't do them because I have. First of all, I have a short attention span, I think. So after, after a couple hours, I I'm ready to go home. I'm hungry, I'm ready for a cappuccino. I also have, have issues like, uh, arthritis in my hands. So I become uncomfortable on longer rides. So, so I need to figure out, I think you need to look at what things are holding you back. And how to mitigate them. Okay. Maybe that that's what I'm learning towards because for me, I need to be doing some three, three and a half hour rides when I had a poor performance. In this recent gravel race. Uh, I think one of the reasons is I'm not doing enough longer rides. What's keeping me from doing longer rides? It's pain in my hands. It's different discomfort. Another problem is I think I'm going too hard earlier in the ride so that, you know, by the time it gets to the three hours, I'm, you know, I don't have enough energy left to do the longer rides. so I think you need to look at what's holding you back figure out how to mitigate it. to start these longer rides slower. need to maybe change my position on the bike to where I'm more upright and have less. pressure on my, on my hands, which are starting to bug me after long rides. maybe it's more padding on the handlebars, a different position. So I think you should, what people can do is look at what's holding them back and don't accept it, out how to mitigate it and work through it.~

~Right. And then I've tried to give an example of, of one of the things that's holding me back. There's longer rides and, I have to figure out how to, uh, to do that regardless of the limitations.~

Kush: ~Totally makes sense is to be a little bit more self analytical about one's performance and find ways to combat them. Um, Ned, uh, just coming on to some of some final questions. Uh, taking, taking a lot of your time. What is, okay. So I call this the Asia's athlete session. What is something you wish you knew earlier about longevity in sports?~

Ned: ~I, I think, uh, fueling, I, I think it's, it's interesting. I used to, uh, I more focused on carbo loading back in the day than I was with, uh, with getting quality protein. So I, I, I think, uh, nutrition and. Being more knowledgeable about nutrition than I am now. Um, and also fueling as you, as you ride. One thing they're learning about these days in racing is the amount of carbohydrates that, that athletes are able to absorb. So I, I think that, uh, something I could have learned when I was racing that, and it could have improved my performance is better quality fueling. Um, and, and eating better. And now I'm more, more cognizant of the nutrition I need. For sure, hydration is a big one. I think that, uh, I would, I raced and trained a lot when I was not as well hydrated as I should have been. And I think it, it affected my performance.~

Kush: ~Talking of hydration, did you add any supplements to your water? Sugar.~

Ned: ~Well, it's interesting. I carry two water bottles. I'll carry one with plain water. And then, yeah, I'll use one that has a, uh, an electrolyte mix in it. And, uh, one thing I was finding out is that I was getting cavities. I was using, like, an electrolyte with sugar mixture. uh, I was At a late age, I was getting cavities and my, my dentist was like, you know, what are you doing? It's not usual for guys your age to be getting cavities. And I, I would train with a, uh, with an electrolyte mixture with sugar in it. And, uh, I, I think that dry mouth with, uh, electrolytes and, uh, You know, salt and whatever the pH level is can give you cavities. So, so what I would do is, you know, drink electrolytes and then I would drink the plain water afterwards and kind of rinse my mouth and swallow it. uh, that would help not to have that, that sugar and, acidity, acidity in my mouth giving me, uh, cavities. I'm not sure if that was a question you asked, but it, it was an interesting thing I learned that, uh, I counteracted with, still wanting the electrolytes, but not wanting to affect my health, my, the health of my teeth.~

Kush: ~No, that is super useful actually because, um, I also use Electrolytes when I'm out on long climbing days, but I will not always remember to rinse my mouth after. And yeah, there's the residual sugar would maybe lead to cavities down the line if I was not careful. So I think, I think that bit of extra bonus advice is, is well heeded.~

~Ned, you seem quite dialed about your diet. Any other like Hard won things you've learned about supplementation. I mean, the olive oil one is, is, is very interesting. Anything else?~

Ned: ~Yeah, I think quality oils, well, recovery drinks. uh, I, I think, and I definitely do it now is after an intense ride, you know, when I've done intervals or I've done a, uh, you know, a hard group ride and I really had to dig deep. You know, when you're, you're doing that kind of muscle strain, you know, that creates muscle damage, it's really important to get a quality protein, drink or food afterwards.~

~And a drink is the best way to take in that protein. And so I do protein shakes. Now, right when I get back from a, from a hard ride and it's not, you know, some people do like low calorie protein shakes, but I definitely don't have a problem with calories and I also want to replenish some of the carbohydrates. So, so my protein shakes have, you know, have fruit and carbohydrates in them as well. But getting a quality protein source that's easy to absorb. I think it's really important. And, and the older you get the, the. Protein for recovery, I think, I think is more important.~

Kush: ~Great to know. And then, yeah, just final question, Ned, to round it all off. Yeah. When you look back at your, this long and illustrious career, the races, the victories, and yeah, even the longevity, what are you most, uh, personally proud of.~

Ned: ~I think Xterra is, uh, switching to triathlon figuring out is, uh, is something that I'm, I'm, I'm proud of because of the challenge. I mean, triathlon is, is really interesting and challenging because you've got three different sports. Figuring out the techniques on three different sports. figuring out how to recover when combining different sports and then figuring out how to from one of those sports to the next, you know, I mean, you're fatigued, you go through the transition area and then you've got to switch to a whole different activity. I think the challenge of that really kind of kept me fascinated and engaged with endurance sports. When I went from mountain bike racing and having been successful mountain bike racing, and then great to have a challenge and a complicated challenge. So when I kind of. Improved, went, you know, Xterra from third to second to first and, and won some big events. Um, because it's hard, it's also, uh, rewarding and that,~

Kush: ~Ned, it's been amazing. Absolutely. I mean, remarkable how, yeah, you made that switch and you were again, so yeah, successful in something that was difficult and new to you. Ned, it's been amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on to Ageless Athlete today.~

Ned: ~Yeah, great. It's been great being here, Kush, and some, some great questions that really stimulated me thinking about, you know, what's helped me over the years.~

Kush: ~Thank you.​~