#71 When the Body Breaks Through: From Cold Oceans to Chemo Miles — Best of Q1 2025

Ageless Athlete - Best of Q1 2025
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Kush: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to Ageless Athlete. This is your host, Kush Kal, and thank you for joining us again today. This show is about defined limits, not just the limits of age, but the ones placed on us by injury, fear, illness, or even the stories we have told ourselves for too long. Each week I talk to people who are still pushing mentally, physically, spiritually, long after the world expects them to slow down.

This episode today is a little different. I went back to the conversations from the last few months, pulled out the moments that created the most. Impact on me and stitch together this [00:01:00] highlight reel. These are the voices and stories I couldn't shake. You will hear from Amy Zer, a nurse in her fifties who swam nearly 30 miles through 43 degree water towards, yes, towards the shark infested Faron Islands just outside of San Francisco, across from Golden Gate Bridge, and she did this without a wetsuit.

Okay. You'll hear from Travis Macy, an endurance athlete, sharing how running became a lifeline for his dad as Alzheimer's took hold. Then there's raise hat training between rounds of chemo and still choosing Epic Mountain runs to reclaim his body and spirit. Chris Burish [00:02:00] alone in the dark, pushing off the coast of Morocco to paddle across the entire coast, the entire Atlantic on a standup paddleboard.

Then there are the quieter but no less profound moments like Tara, who rewrote her life with sticky notes and affirmations. And Lisa batching who broke down mid desert with a bottle of water in her hands, realizing how precious it really was. Each of these voices gave me something, a lesson, a shift in perspective, a jolt of awe.

I hope they do the same for you. So let's dive into this. Best of Q1, 2025.

[00:03:00] . First up is Amy Zer. She is a new native nurse in her fifties and the only person on Earth to swim nearly 30 miles from San Francisco to the Faron Islands, also known as Shark Island without a wetsuit in 43 degree water.

Densely populated with great white sharks. This isn't just a story about physical endurance. It's about breaking down the impossible into bite-sized chunks. Listen to how she trained her mind and how she stayed calm. When a body begins shutting down. From the cold and yeah, if you're curious about what kind of person does this for fun, definitely check out the full episode.

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Kush: So please describe, uh, this, this thing that you did for like the [00:04:00] everyday person.

Amy: Open water swimming is any body of water that you swim from point to point. And typically there's lakes in the Midwest that they have events in. There's the oceans on both coasts that have swim events. And the reality is, Um, The accessibility to lakes and the ocean is our best resource in the whole United States. the fact that there's initiatives to clean up this open water has just allowed more areas for us to swim in. Now we're swimming in rivers and, know, I swam around Manhattan Island, um, in New York City. Like there's, there's things that people can do now. So open water has really kind of. unbridled.

It, it, it has so many possibilities. So for somebody that does pool swimming, you really [00:05:00] can't fathom the distance you're covering because you're just going back and forth, back and forth. But when you're in open water, you swim to that point or you swim there and then you come back and you could see the distance.

And it just kind of is very, um, kind of reassuring, but also encouraging because it seems almost unfathomable that you could do it and then you did it and then it's just kind of leads to more and more distance. So the swim that I did was from the Golden Gate Bridge the Fisherman Buoy at the Farallon Islands.

Now the Farallons are from the Golden Gate Bridge 29. 7 miles and five people have swam the other direction from the islands into the Golden Gate Bridge. I saw the swim the other direction because who swims toward the shark island, right? knowing my [00:06:00] strengths, able to capitalize on that.

And I was able to use the colder water and the distance to the island in my favor. So the other people dove in at the island and it was cold, but then it got warmer as they approached San Francisco. Whereas I knew it was going to get colder and I was swimming toward the sharks. So I just had to be mentally, physically prepared for this.

So spent a lot of time in the colder water. Um, I had to train for very many hours getting ready for this swim, knowing that the water temperature was going to drop down into the forties. So, It was already starting to warm up in the bay, so I had to kind of find other areas that still had colder water, like going up to the mountains and swimming in Donner Lake.

Um, I spent time, um, in the open [00:07:00] water out past the Golden Gate Bridge, just out by Point Bonita where the water temperature can really vary because of the currents out there. And so it was a lot of prep, but I still was Not expecting the temperature that we ended up having for some of the swim, which was 43 degrees. And that seemed to me for a long time, but it probably wasn't as long. But it was recorded and there were a lot of upwellings. the water off the continental shelf right there really frigid. And so the way the current was when we were approaching the island, that's where that cold water band was. And then as soon as the tide changed, the water temperature raised back up to 50, which seemed really warm to me point. But, you know, um, we were almost done. And I didn't want to stop because [00:08:00] I didn't want to have to do it again. So I knew I had to get through it because it's hard to push through. It's painful when you swim in that cold. I mean, you're out in the cold and your hands start freezing, my whole body was doing that. So I had to figure out a way to get through that. So it was kind of mentally challenging, but just knew I could do it.

Kush: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is all the physical preparation that you spoke about and you can do that and you can do that. Maybe you can even double that, but when it comes down to it, it really is perhaps that mental toughness, I think. that allows you to get to the, get to the very end because, because there is just so much that you're having to overcome.

Amy, it's these, it's the length of the swim and the [00:09:00] environment you're having to go through and the challenges, both some of them known and prepared for, but so many of them unexpected. You spoke about, uh, you know, some of the, uh, uh, the, the, the temperature variances.

Amy: Yeah.

Kush: just talk about that for a second.

Again. cold water swimming in the forties, Sains wetsuit seems ridiculous, right? Because I swim in a 4, I surf in a 4. 3 or a 5. 4 sometimes. When the water temps, you know, dropped down to the early 50s, like now we are approaching winter swells. And, uh, you know, people are going to be busting out their thickest wetsuits, but you are there for hours on end, again, in a swimsuit.

And you have prepared for like temperatures of a certain kind swimming in, let's say Alpine lakes [00:10:00] and with other kinds of training, but then the, the temperature dropped even further. Uh, it's, it's, I think it's one of those things, which is, is hard to, Get one's arms around if one is not an open water swimmer and surfs in cold water.

But I think maybe, maybe, uh, the listener can just take this thing away that, um, you know, you have pool water. And please ask me, what is the, the, the typical temperature in a swimming pool? In the U. S.?

Amy: Yeah. It varies from If you have a competition pool, it's at 78 degrees, but most swim centers will be in the low eighties.

Kush: Wow.

Amy: I know,

Kush: ha ha,

Amy: a lot of training in the pool to work on my speed and my endurance and other ways, but I mean, you got to be able to compartmentalize. You can't take the [00:11:00] whole thing was so big and so unruly and so unmanageable.

If you look at it in its entirety. if you could kind of focus on one thing at a time, I mean, swim was 17 hours. I mean, has anybody really enjoyed even sleeping 17 hours? Very rarely you wake up sore, know, that's ridiculous and you can't eat for 17 hours. There's really nothing you can do pleasurable for that length of time.

Kush: totally true. Yes,

Amy: you can't. about that. You got to kind of break it down. So it's like you go half an hour at a time. I could manage to the next half an hour and I can manage to the next and I can manage to the next and you kind of just string it together. And then as far as the variables, like temperature dropping, that was unexpected.

I, I couldn't think about it. I just had to figure out at least when I'm swimming, I'm generating heat. When you're surfing, [00:12:00] there's a lot of paddling and then you wait. and then you catch a wave and then you got to grind it back out. And then by the time you get back out in the lineup, you actually got your heat again, but then you're sitting waiting for the wave again, then

Kush: true.

Amy: drops.

Kush: True.

Amy: I think that that's one of the advantages of just a constant, um, steady pace is just that you keep generating heat.

Kush: Wow. Wow.

Amy: things down into manageable pieces, you can kind of accomplish a lot of , tactics and skills that you don't realize you have. that's kind of how I worked it. I just had to have a good crew around me of my really good training partners and friends. And I knew that I, my life was in their hand. Literally when I asked them to be on my swim, there's, you know, the reality that we're going into shark water and anything could happen. And. don't think that we all appreciated the [00:13:00] gravity of that ask until the swim was over and we all like, we're really overwhelmed by that, you know, like, you know, there could have been a shark issue. There could have been, I mean, I passed a few carcasses of seals, half eaten seals. Yeah, the captain, I know, I know, I didn't know about it.

Thank God. But. The captain, he's a fisherman out there, so he knows what to look for. He's looking for bait balls and what to avoid. well, before one of the, my, pay swimmers jumped in the water, because I had three pay swimmers that swam an hour at a time, the captain called him up and pointed, and my friend Kirk looked out, and he goes, oh, well, a half eaten seal. And he goes, yeah, a shark just ate it. I mean, that's fresh.

Said, well, that shark ate, we're good. And he jumped in the water and swam with me. And the captain was never so unbelievably humbled by that [00:14:00] comment, but it was true. Like that's the shark you don't have to worry about anymore. That was, had already eaten. So, know, he got in the water with me and he couldn't really say no because he knew he was there to help me. And. was the ask. So we were very grateful that nothing bad happened. 

Kush: Next up is Travis Macy. I. You might know him as an elite ultra endurance athlete, but what moved me most was how he's been running, literally besides his dad, mark, who's living with Alzheimer's. This one's about love, adaptation, and refusing to give up movement and purpose even when memory. Begins to fade.

It's one of the most moving conversations I've had on the show. [00:15:00] You'll hear a lot more about that in the full episode if it speaks to you. 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: So I would like to hear from you on how you've personally seen the power of these things in helping your dad continue doing the things he loves. And by doing that, extend his health span.

Travis: Yeah. Yeah. Kush, I, couldn't agree more. And, and you're, you're exactly right with, with Healthspan and with, uh, you know, I, I love the, um, Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. Are you familiar with that book? 

Or, um, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I haven't read, I haven't read that book yet. I know of, 

Travis: an 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I know of his books. Yes. Okay.

Travis: Yeah. I highly, he, you know, his, his main theme is that idea of like, you know, You know, in addition to longevity, quantity of life, like, let's emphasize quality and [00:16:00] especially towards, towards the end or with, you know, with something like Alzheimer's or with a terminal illness or something, you know, let's try to be, be clear or, or, you know, for those of us who have aging parents, like what conversations do we need to have? Uh, you know, um, And that's interesting to say, because, you know, at this point, like having any hypothetical or conversation with my dad, I mean, that's the possibility of that is long gone, now it's just doing it. But yes, back to your question has being active outside. enhanced his health span. I mean, hell yeah. Like that's number one is human connection. And number two is moving outside. And those things, uh, you know, there's, of course we don't know, you know, had we not put emphasis on those things, where would the Alzheimer's progression be at? Like, there's no way you can know, you know, I am very certain that, that, you know, wherever he's [00:17:00] at, He's doing a whole lot better physically and psychologically of, again, number one, the human connection and number two, being outside and moving.

And, and, you know, basically it's like, at least for us over the last, you know, six plus years, been a constant, like, Push up against the boundaries of what's capable. Push, push, push. And we saw in Fiji, like, man, we, we pushed that boundary and we got, right to the limit. And, you know, luckily no one, no one got hurt.

No one, you know, I don't think it was irresponsible to go out and do that race. I could imagine someone, someone with Alzheimer's is doing this. Like, that's crazy. Like, that's, you know, that's not responsible. You know, maybe that's not in their mind, but with me, with my two teammates, with the structure of the race, the safety infrastructure, that felt like an acceptable risk to do something really important that we would never do again. And we've [00:18:00] kept doing that. We've kept pushing. that boundary, Kush, um, you know, and, and it was, it was first he was doing ultra runs, you know, and for a long period of time, it was dad being out doing his own training, riding the mountain bike, running, trekking, you know, and those things have disappeared by step.

Like I had to steal my dad's bike. Kush I had to like, you know. It became apparent that physically he could still ride a bike, but he could not stay on the side of the road and it wasn't safe. And like, I culminated a visit to my parents house by taking his bike. And Like, I'm still sad about that. and was the right choice, you know, so he kept running. He kept trucking. He kept going out up until about three months ago. He was going out alone. One little spot next to little little rural dirt roads. Not much traffic. Dad could go out and he'd [00:19:00] go up and down this hill. 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: And like, 

what did the, you know, to your 

question, what did that provide? Like, that provides everything. It's like structure to the day. It's purpose. It's excitement. It's routine. It's movement. It's fitness. It's, you know, bone density. It's cardiovascular health. It's autonomy, you know, it's so many things and we've had to, we've had to remove, like, you know, my mom called me and my siblings and she was like, you know, guys, do you think?

I don't think dad 

can do this alone 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: And, you know, and we're like, yeah, like, probably 

not. Cause like, 

you know, the inevitability of, of getting lost or getting hit by a car. So like, okay, well there goes the autonomy, but we can still do it with him. And, and my mom does it, you know, like, it's still like, that's the plan. And, you know, I call my dad at night and I'm like, I'm like, dad, what'd you do today? [00:20:00] 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: I love it. Hmm. 

Travis: He says, I went running, but like, it's all I got to do, but every

day I just go running. It lets, because it's still, it's still part of his identity. You know, there's not a whole lot of actual running going on. It could be. It could be 10 minutes or it could be three hours depending on the weather or the energy or whatever, but it is still being outside.

It's still moving. It's still the fitness, the bone density, like all that stuff. And Kush, you can see when he is exercising, you know, and I think like, You know, research would support this. Cognition goes up. he doesn't become some mathematician or something, but you, his cognition goes up. You can tell, he can comprehend more.

He can remember more. He'll like, he'll throw in some random, hilarious one line joke, you know, you're like, Dad, where the fuck did that come from? You know, you know, you're like, Dad, where the fuck did that come from? Out of nowhere. [00:21:00] Um, And it's great. It's really important. like, how long does it, but then you find the next thing and you keep , I can imagine maybe someone's in memory care some of these memory care facilities, they have a great like Finston, you know, kind of outdoor space 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: pads, 

like. Man, get people outside, let them walk, let them move, 

let them, let them do it alone if they want to, and let them do it with someone, because that's a great, like, let them, who 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Hmm. 

Travis: it is? 

Find a person whose hand they can hold and 

walk circles 

around this place, you know, and maybe they can't walk. Well, do it in a wheelchair, move outside, however you can do it. Um, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: I think, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. No, 

Travis: I think it's 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Alzheimer's is awful and it can take so many things away, but. It cannot take away [00:22:00] the vitality and even the immediate dopamine rush that fresh air and exercise can bring you. So that is excellent advice that 

Whether it is something maybe as extreme as, uh, 

Travis: Yeah. 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: know, going on a mountain bike, if one is able to, but even, even holding somebody's hand and going for a walk around an outdoor space, uh, 

Travis: yeah, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: should continue.

doing any of those things to the best of one's ability. yeah. 

Travis: yeah. And that taught me, Kush, you know, and here I am, you know, much younger, you know, ideally sort of, you know, I have a lot of capabilities as an athlete, but man, dude, last fall I couldn't do anything. I mean, I couldn't, uh, my parents lived, Two hours away, like I couldn't drive and see him like that was really hard.

I couldn't, you know, after a while, the [00:23:00] only thing outside I could go for a walk and then I could walk up this Hill, you know, I can see it out there and there's a great view. It's a really spiritual place I could go walk up that alone or with my dogs or with, you know, one of my kids or my wife or a friend. And like, that was huge. That was a huge part of my concussion recovery. Like, Yeah.

I want to be training. I want to be, you know, I want to be doing these, you know, VO2 max intervals. Like I want to be doing all this shit, but right now I can walk up this hill at a heart rate of about 100 and I can get to the top and I can, I can. Do a degree view of this awesome valley and find some spirituality and, uh, connection and calm. and that was huge. I mean, that's like, that's what makes me feel like an age with athlete is, is, you know, finding that and being able to, you know, I kind of know in, in, you know, like, [00:24:00] Anyone knows things are going to change.

Like man, there's going to be where like, I can't, you know, maybe my kid's going to have to take my bike. There will be a last time to go skiing. Like there will be, there will be a last time for everything. And sometimes we know it. And sometimes we don't, you know, but we're going to have to be, we're gonna have to be ready to navigate those things.

You know, there's going to be a last send. There's going to be a last time putting on your climbing harness, getting on that surfboard. you know, it's, here's the thing. It's really sad to think about, but also if we keep that in mind, 

kush_1_01-21-2025_130127: Yeah. 

Travis: get on that 

surfboard and you're like, fuck yeah, I'm getting on a surfboard

and this may be my last 

time and maybe 

not, but like, I am going to love this. 

Kush: Now we hear from Jamie Justice. Jamie is the executive director of the hundred and 1 million XPRIZE for Health Plan. She [00:25:00] is leading the charge to reimagine what aging looks like, not just medically, but culturally.

This clip gives you a taste of how we can reframe these extra 30 years. Many of us are living, she will change the way you think about health, aging, and even how we care for each other. And yes, the full episode is packed with hopeful and grounded inside . 

contrarian question here. Of course. Human lifespan, right? Yes. Has already grown by a significant margin, just in the last century. Right. And on top of that, the, the population of this planet is huge. Only seems to increase. Yes. 

Jamie: 100% . Yeah. None of those are those, those are, those are facts, not opinions.

Yeah. So, so why 

Kush: is it. Why are we using our resources [00:26:00] to focus on this, uh, this challenge? 

Jamie: Oh, no. So that is such a good question. Um, and it actually ends up, and it is a nuanced answer. So you're absolutely right. So right now, humans are living around, and most Western and developed countries, about 30 years longer.

Our life expectancy is about 30 years longer than it was at the turn of the century, so early 1900s. So 100 years extra 30 years is that's pretty amazing. And so what we're living with now is for the first time a change in our, in our population structure is that we're the first of generations to actually have most of our natural predators removed.

And that's been mainly through public health, right? So we have, um, you know, through, uh, clean water. through sewage, through vaccination, through improved maternal care and infant care, and through better trauma treatment, right? And so if you don't get thrown off a horse and break a leg, you're not going to die in most cases.[00:27:00] 

If you have a heart attack, people are also not as likely to die as they once were. We have all of these managed conditions. And so we are living longer, but the subtext here, right, is that even if, you know, even if we're not trying to change our upper dimension, right, that sort of that upper maximum lifespan or median lifespan, um, the truth is, is that we don't have a care or health system that is capable of addressing our health.

During those extra 30 years of life, and if we actually look at the numbers from a public health level that there's something called the health adjusted life expectancy, which is how long are you expected to live, um, without a disease or disability that's going to have a major impact on, on your engagement, your ability to live and to be in a, in a community.

Um, and that's in the U. S. There's a 12 year gap. So our life expectancy has increased. Our health expectancy has not. It's hit a cap [00:28:00] and just sat there. And so the, the push for this prize isn't necessarily how are we going to make people live forever or be immortal or, you know, any of those things. It really is how do we tackle solutions to actually address health.

So that the years we have are spent in better condition, better functioning, better engagement and that we can change the perspective and the shift of how we think about the relationship between aging and disease and aging and disability is how do we shift from a sort of a hopeless mindset and a palliative approach to aging to one of one of care and promise.

because I think there still is a lot that can be done in those out years, um, that actually lessens our impact on the environment is that that's one of the other things is yes, as we live longer, those who stay in decent health and can remain independent, their impact on the planet is actually less than many others in the population.

But again, it's those who are not so dependent is that as soon as we [00:29:00] begin this sort of this active acute care model and leaves late stage, um, whether it's through dialysis. Or other sort of those medical costs and medical needs. Not only does it have a personal burden, it has a caregiver burden. It also has a major economic burden and a big urban footprint.

And so again, any solutions we can do to actually improve our health and independence, um, it automatically impacts, has an environmental impact and footprint as well. Um, and so the two are not as, um, in conflict as they might at first seem. 

Kush: I appreciate that. The one other thing I was thinking about when you were talking is, um, also that, well, for example, I feel I am using more resources in my, in my older years.

I am also in my mid 40s than I did like, even like 10 years ago. And sadly, I mean, those, that, that, that, uh, draw I have [00:30:00] on, on society. Will not go down, right? The other thing I also realize is a lot of people when they reach, let's say, you know, what what? Popular culture calls like those golden years, right?

And and They are often at maybe be at their peak or close to the peak of their intellectual and cognitive capacities. But if their health does not cooperate, we lose so much of that capital. So I, I think that, yeah, I think there's, I love this reframing where, you know, once, once you get to a certain point, it's not about keeping you alive.

It's about helping you continue to be a contributing member of, uh, Actually, one other question I thought I would ask is, this is a global competition, right? 

Jamie: Very [00:31:00] much. Yeah. So just to give you, I'll give you a snapshot. So we have right now at the time of this recording, we're actually still, um, we're still recruiting.

Uh, so teams are coming in from around the world. We have about 550 global teams who have registered. Um, they are coming in from 55 countries. They're not just Western countries. Like we're seeing this, we have, um, we have most continents. We don't have a team from Antarctica. That's the only, that's the only major continent we're missing.

Um, I invite a team from Antarctica, but we haven't had one yet. Um, but I mean, this is a, it's a global issue that. A lot of people are talking about because the change in population dynamic is that when we've inverted, we used to have what we call a pyramid, right? So you have more people that are young, you have more people that are, um, sort of, again, children through young adult, middle adulthood.

And that's, you have this big bubble at the bottom and then you have very few older adults in most populations that sort of. Population pyramid has shifted where it's become [00:32:00] rectangularized where we actually now don't necessarily in a lot of our Western cultures. We actually don't have more young. Um, so we have a very flourishing aging population that our society is.

And our medical systems don't know how to handle. But I mean, this is also society, right? And so how do we begin to actually embrace people as they age? You know, maybe even as athletes, right? Maybe have a master's category that's a little more inclusive than just 40 up. Encourage people to participate.

Think about, you know, lifelong approaches to education and training and, um, and re skilling. Is that maybe the job I had in my 20s isn't going to be the job I want in my 60s and 70s, but it doesn't mean that I don't have something to contribute. It just might be in a different way or with a different perspective.

And that we know that when people age is that they actually do become better community members. I mean, this is one of the things that I think, you know, wisdom is a real thing. It can be quantified and that, you know, those, our elders in our society do bring better [00:33:00] wisdom, balance, and perspective. If we give them a voice And a place to be, but if we continue to remove that power, you know, that we're really, we're, we're doing ourselves and our society is a disservice.

And that one part of it is by, you know, one part of it is this health thing, right? I said, if we have these therapeutics, if we begin to address sort of this biology of it, that's one way to show that it's like, hey guys, this is really, and it's important. There's, there's opportunities and there's hope. Um, but, you know, but it also has to be coupled with building the discussion around how do we now embrace our aging societies or aging populations?

The answer isn't just to put people in a home and forget they exist. It isn't to ignore them, it's to invite them in, have the conversation

Kush: Ray Zab has crossed the Sahara, the Arctic, and many of the world's most inhospitable places on foot, but Ray [00:34:00] got hit with a cancer diagnosis instead of retreating. He kept raining through chemotherapy. Every month he set how to do something epic between treatments. This one's a masterclass in resilience.

If you are someone you love is facing illness or uncertainty, I can't recommend his full episode enough. where are you with 

your, uh, cancer journey at this time of day? Mm hmm.

Ray: a rare form of which of a lymphoma, which is a blood cancer and I It of reared its ugly head for me in 2020. I was training for an expedition adventure. I was like, not feeling myself. And as a matter of fact, for a while, I was starting to feel [00:35:00] like I was sort of like, I don't want to say degrading, but I was like, not at my peak anymore.

And I thought, am I just getting old? I mean, I'm 55 years old. Right. So maybe, I mean, that age is part of it. Right. And, but then my wife was like, no, something's not right. Like there's, there's something wrong. Right. And story short. Through a series of tests and over the course of six months, they were able to determine, it took them a while to figure out what I had, this cancer that I had that basically, you know, was in my bone marrow was preventing my body from creating healthy red blood cells. My protein levels in my blood were extremely high, dangerously high levels of protein in my blood. And so it was affecting my ability to function, create healthy cells. Everything. And so I would have to go into six months of intensive chemo and monoclonal therapy in order to, know, beat this thing down into remission. Punchline is I feel great, better than I have in years. I, [00:36:00] I, you know, at the trails, I've tons of single track right behind my place where we live. setting times on those trails that I haven't done in 10, 15 years. I mean, I'm in amazing shape right now and I've got all kinds of expeditions on the go.

But during that six month process. going through chemo. I was allergic to the monoclonal therapy. So I would get really sick. And the way it would work is I'd have two days of monoclonal and chemotherapy. Then I would have 25 days off. Then I would go in for the next session and it would repeat itself like that for six months. And I made a decision. I thought to myself, you know, I've earned the right to sit on the couch, binge Netflix, eat a bag of chips for the next six months and get ready for chemo and do it again. But I decided, no, you know what? I want to get myself in the best shape I can. I want to tackle this thing head on. Every month I want to come out of it and try to feel less shitty. month than I do the previous month that I've gone into the chemo. So I made a goal that I was, I, so I do [00:37:00] two, two days of treatment. I come home and I'd be sick on the couch. then a couple of days and my wife would get me up. I'd start moving.

I'd go for a walk. I'd start out with a 500 meter walk. And that was my first day of training. And I'd start all over again and I'd get myself back up. to a point that I was feeling really fit and I would go somewhere in the world and I would do something with the approval of my doctors and all that stuff safely.

I would go and do something epic I did trips all over the place, all kinds of stuff. And I did this, I repeated this process every six or every month for six months in order to be in the best shape I could. to tackle the next rounds of chemo, but also to mentally prove to myself that I can overcome it. And then I would come out of this thing at the other end and be stronger than ever. And that's where I am now. And you know what? I'm in remission. And guess what? I never think about it coming back. I don't worry about it because it's too much good stuff. Cancer has taught me that there are too many great things that happen each day in our [00:38:00] lives. The day you, the best day you have is the one that you're six feet up and you're not six feet under. You know, like I mean, you know, you just gotta try and, experience is different. But you just gotta try and find something in that day. It's positive, you

Kush: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, every day, every day being alive and healthy is a gift and some of us have been learning that in a more challenging way than others. But your, you know, your story of or your experience of like taking that step with fighting and trying to, uh, uh, Trying to recover your health by going out and exercising and staying fit is maybe such a valuable lesson for us.

But I can only imagine Ray, like, I don't know enough about cancer, but I [00:39:00] believe that chemotherapy is, is traumatic physically and mentally. And I'm guessing, you know, you have your round of chemo and then you wake up the next day and you're feeling fairly brutalized. And.

Ray: dog.

Kush: and then you decide, Hey, you know what?

I want to make a choice here. I can, I can do Netflix or I can, you know, find my running shoes and, and, and go out.

It seems to me that just both this attitude that you had, which is, um, this attitude allowed you to go and exercise, which changed. Also, your mindset and your positivity and I think it might have actually helped in your efforts to fight cancer. So uh, tell us about like, maybe you went to your doctors, you know, for your next round and they're like, Oh my goodness, you know, you, you, [00:40:00] somebody who's going through this like, this, this stuff, uh, Regimen.

You seem that much more alive and positive. So, so tell us like whether this approach you had has, has been, um, sort of a huge catalyst in helping, uh, keep the disease at bay.

Ray: Yeah, I mean, look at I, you know, I believe that the, and I've said this before too, greatest challenges we face in life are 90 percent mental. The other 10 percent is all in our heads, right? I mean, you know, it's our outlook and it's the way we perceive things is in a large part of our reality, right? there were, I would go in for chemo and there were like, I, you know, I'm in Canada, so in different medical system, but I'm in, I'm in Canada, I'm in this huge waiting room. these people that are getting chemo for all kinds of various cancers, right? And I go in, I'm waiting my turn, I got like the same number you get at the deli.

Think, you know, you take your, you get your, and [00:41:00] I'm waiting for my number, I'm looking up at the screen, and I'm looking around me, there's all these people that I'm thinking that person is not going to be alive in another week or two that person I mean, I could have had it a hell of a lot worse a

Kush: Wow.

Ray: and it dawned on me one of those You know meeting rooms room visits that it can always be worse. It can always be worse So, you know, you've got to tackle these things. You've got to go at it. Now, there's nothing wrong with has their individual interpretation of the life they're living and what they're going through. That's the way it is. It's relative. Just like I said, the great things are relative to us as individuals.

So are the most difficult things that we will do in our lives, challenges we will face, health issues, et cetera, are relative to us as individuals. You cannot compare yourself to anyone else. So these are only my own personal experiences. [00:42:00] I certainly learned through the process of chemo and going through the cancer, that once again, it's solidified in my mind that we are capable of a lot more than we think we are. 

Kush: Yeah, no, that sounds again, just a reinforcement of that, uh, that Keystone message. any other, Like life lesson you, care to share, uh, Ray on, on, on, on your journey with battling cancer. because, uh, many of the people listening to this podcast, you know, they are, uh, uh, maybe older in years and they have, uh, similar challenges perhaps.

Um, uh, what, what can they do when they're being, uh, when they're. When they feel overwhelmed by life's challenges, you know, either something as big as this or maybe maybe smaller, but equally paralyzing

Ray: Well, I [00:43:00] mean, look, it's, it's, it's have to look into your own life, you know, there, there is no magic, uh, or the, you know, the perfect words or the concept that's going to save the day. really has to be an individual decision to change one's mindset the situation that they're in from relinquish mode to attack mode, you know, and to fight not flight, you know, that's something that one has to find within themselves. You know, and it's a journey on that journey, you learn things, you know, and no matter what, unlike choosing to go and do these things or take on challenges or get off the couch, you don't have a choice, you know, if you're tackling a major health issue, you gotta treat it, treat it or die. That's what's gonna happen, you know, so gotta be up for the challenge and you have to figure it out really [00:44:00] quick. 

Kush: Steve McClure is one of Britain's greatest rock climbers, and he is still climbing five 14 plus elite rock climbing grades in his fifties.

What stuck with me though wasn't the greats. It was how much he loves the process. Even when he falls on the final moves of his climbing project over and over, he talks about failure with joy, with play, and with no rush. This mindset, it's cold for someone working towards something meaningful on or off the wall.

You will find more gems like this in his full episode. 

this mental game is so complex. So how, maybe for the everyday person, how do [00:45:00] you. Develop this kind of this, this process of trying really, really hard and wanting success, but also this bit of. Um, also this kind of headspace where you were like, Oh, I want this really bad, but I just love this so much that I almost don't want it to end.

And I'm sensing that is maybe what ultimately allows you to succeed on something. So, um, so next level. So any, any clues as to how mental game for the rest of us can be evolved?

Steve: Hey, I mean that, that's, I'm sure that's a huge subject that people could deep dive into. And in terms of, I mean, let's, let's move away from that route just for a moment. Um, more, more lately when I've been trying routes, I've almost been pleased to fall off them. Because I can have [00:46:00] another go, and, you know, there's been a route, there was a route I was trying in North Wales recently, and I fell off the last move a couple of times, and I, obviously when I fell off I was like, oh, damn, like, should have got that, like, that's so disappointing, but then in the time that I got to lower off, in those 20 seconds it took me to get to the ground, I was like, okay, cool.

I can still come here again. I could still come to this. I mean, I could obviously, I could still go anywhere, but there was a reason to go back. There was a, uh, like a focus. There was a, something that wanted, I really wanted to go back and I could try those moves again with, with proper conviction. You know, obviously I can do the route two times, but it's that one time, the first time, which is really what it's all about.

So yeah, I think if you can think about it like that. Then, I mean, ultimately, you've chosen a route, you really like it, you're really enjoying it, so why be so stressed when [00:47:00] you don't quite do it? Because all that's going to happen is you're going to move on to another one. So, I mean, all these routes that we do, you know, we climb in all these amazing routes, and as soon as we do a route, we tend to move on to the next route.

I kind of feel that's a bit odd really. I mean, it's not like when you listen to a piece of music, you go, oh, that was a good piece of music. I'll not listen to it again. You'll, of course, listen to it lots of times. So when we climb these amazing routes, why don't we do them again? Why do we just move on to the next one straight away?

So that's kind of, I suppose that's my mentality with, with climbing is that if I'm really enjoying it, then if I don't send it on then The good news is I get to try it again and enjoy the whole thing again with all those cool people in that great Place with that beautiful weather all that stuff. It's just there again to enjoy So so don't rush it and don't be disappointed if you don't do it because you get to have another [00:48:00] go

Kush: I love it. I love it all. It's so amazing. I think, yeah, I think, uh, myself and maybe a lot of other people have to still work on, maybe resetting our approach a little bit so that, uh, yes, for sure. Um, you get on a route. And let's see, choose a route because it inspires us in some way.

But at some point that process shifts where, you know, that desire and love sometimes gets a little bit eroded and gets replaced by that, that sort of that stress. But I think the more we can hang on to, You're loving that, that route, or it could be anything else in life. I think, in fact, the heart. Yeah, the more we will enjoy life per se, because we will look forward to those things with that much more but then also maybe. kind of help us towards success because I mean, if one is a happier,

Steve: Yeah, yeah 

Kush: one is more, uh, [00:49:00] at ease with, maybe those two, um, dualities of success and

Steve: Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, I would just, I would, I would add to that. I, I'm probably one of the relatively few climbers who have tried at their max to not have had any projects get away from me yet. As in, I've not invested heavily and come away without a tick. Now, I think that's pretty lucky, but I do know tons of climbers who've, you know, really given their all to something, and then for whatever reason, either injury, old age, or perhaps they were, um, you know, they moved away or it was the end of a trip or something, they came away what they would potentially call empty handed as it were.

Now I've not had anything actually get away from me yet. There's bound to be one at some point that I try and [00:50:00] let's call it fail. But yeah, so far I've just about managed everything I've really tried. 

Kush: Thanks for that, Steve. I, I didn't mean to ask you about that because yes, from what I can sense, you have accomplished, obviously accomplished a lot of things, but then you've also managed to complete most things you've set out to do. And. it because, sorry, and I don't mean to, , sound, , a little bit, negative here. Do you think you have perhaps, not raised the bar for yourself high enough that you have just been very astute your abilities and how far you can push? Because like, for example, Rain Man, I mean, you, was the hardest route in the UK, and I don't know how many repeats it's had, but I'm sure it's still one of the hardest routes in the world. So you are setting the bar really high, but for yourself though, you think you done that?

Steve: I mean, that's, that's a good question. Um, yeah. Have I just [00:51:00] basically avoided trying properly hard? Um, have I just stuck within my comfort zone? I feel like I've got a reasonable awareness of what I can achieve and, and maybe I don't like to set the bar too high. Maybe I don't like to take the risk that I won't succeed.

And certainly these days. the routes that I choose, which are, you know, longer than an onsite. I get really inspired when I feel like I can do it in a timeframe that feels comfortable. And that might be two, three, four, five days. I've not really got stuck into something which I can tell right from the office, like, wow, this is going to take me 30 days.

I'm not sure I'm I've even got that in me anymore to to get involved with something that hard. But yeah, in the past, maybe when I, I just thought this is going to be too hard, I, [00:52:00] I'm not going to invest in this. Um, maybe I haven't put the bar as high as I could have placed it. I mean, you know, people say, you know, if you're not falling off, you're not trying hard enough. 



Kush: Chris British is known for surfing some of the world's biggest waves. But this story, this one is next level. He paddled solo and unsupported across the Atlantic Ocean on a standup paddleboard. It took 93 days.

He pushed off from Morocco alone in the dark with no sendoff. What followed is, well, you will hear. This moment captures day one. The full conversation includes storms, near death moments, and some serious [00:53:00] soul. 

I would love to spend a minute on the trance Atlantic paddle. And, uh, perhaps you can take us into day one.

Chris: Okay.

Kush: So, uh, so what was going through your mind as you pushed off the coast of Morocco? 



Chris: When I started that journey, I was in Morocco, I'd been, we had run out of money for the project because of the, the conditions were really difficult. Um, so I couldn't leave because there were storms that were hitting the Moroccan coast line. So we would have been there for a month. The craft had been sent to the wrong country.

Then it got sent somewhere else. Um, we still have no idea why it got sent to another country. Cause like literally that shouldn't be possible because on the bill of lading, it got on the ship, it got. said that it was meant to be going to, this one location in Morocco, but [00:54:00] it somehow I did, and it sort of derailed the whole project, and it was almost like there was someone trying to sabotage the entire project starting, hence the reason why I was actually Um, on the dock by myself, my team had flown home. I told that if I didn't leave that morning, I was going to get put in jail because my visa had expired. Um, there was no one on the dock because I couldn't tell anyone where I was leaving from, because we had had a whole lot of issues with, um, safety and security of myself for me starting the expedition, it was like someone was trying to stop me from forward with it.

So I couldn't tell anyone where I was. So I left. On that dock, from that dock, completely alone at five o'clock in the morning, no friends, no family, no team, no one on the dock. Um, and to push out in the pitch black.

Kush: Wow. So definitely no send off party. 

Chris: yeah, I was my own send off party. And when you're [00:55:00] doing something like that, a foreign country with no one else around, no support, no team, nothing. It was the most terrifying moment of my entire life to do something, to push off in the sheer blackness out into the Atlantic, to do something that everyone told you impossible. And another guy that had tried six months before me that had only lasted 30, not even 18 hours before to get rescued by the Coast Guard. I mean, it was Yeah, it was, it was, it was incredibly poignant and testing physically, mentally, and emotionally for me and how you push through your fears and adversity and keep yourself in a positive mental framework when you're Everything around you is telling you not to go, but you have to override that and still proceed forward and just take that first stroke and that first paddle stroke and push [00:56:00] through your fears. And I think it's a great example of life. You know, you, you've got it. You've got to move through your fears and you've got to take that first step, um, and overcome it because it's what's beyond your fears and what's beyond your comfort zone. That's actually where your greatest potential lies and your greatest self lies is beyond your fears. And there's an amazing quote that I heard somewhere quite recently that says that is only, it's a mile wide, but it's only an inch deep. And I think it's a beautiful quote and terminology for framing fear in a positive way. you've just got to just dive right in and you've got to go ahead first into it.

And when you do that, it's never, once you move through that first initial state, you know that you can overcome it, but you've got to, you've got to take that leap when everything's telling you not to. And I've been very fortunate that I've learned those lessons through Big Wave Surfing that I've [00:57:00] applied through all other areas of my life as well, is that fear is, is, is, Is debilitating for most people, but I've learned that fear is actually one of the greatest tools be able to help you enhance yourself and overcome great adversity.

And also your greatest version of yourself lies beyond your fears. So every time you have fear that is trying to misguide you to not move forward 99. 9 percent of the time, that actually should be the point that actually drives you to continue forward through the obstacle and the challenge that is ahead of you that you're facing because that's actually the path.

So this famous quote by by the Stoics that that says whatever stands in your way becomes the way is actually a the greatest line that will help direct you on your path to discovering your [00:58:00] greatest self, because it is when you have an obstacle and a challenge and adversity or a goal in front of you that seems terrifying, that actually should remind you that you're on the right path and that you need to keep on moving forward through challenge because yeah, whatever stands in the way becomes the way.

So whatever challenge is facing you, that is giving you the, the fear, that's actually, it should be reminding that you are on the right path and you need to keep on going, which for most people is completely opposite. For most people, it's like, People go, Oh, it's a sign that I need to stop and not move forward. And all these things are happening because it's a sign that I mustn't be moving forward in this direction. No, no. the sign that you are on the right track and you need to keep on pushing through that because that's when most people give up and stop. That's when you need to keep on going and push through because. That's where your greatest magic and potential lies beyond that fear. And that's [00:59:00] where you learn the most of your, from yourself and you grow the most and that's where all your greatest goals and, and self lies beyond those fears. Be the bison, as I say. The bison is the only animal that actually runs towards a storm.

Did you know that?

Kush: Sure. Yeah. ~No. And, and Chris, you, um,~

you, yeah, yeah, no, I, I, I think I read about the bison, maybe even I was researching, your book and your story. So just, you know, putting a pin on that, on that journey. Yeah. Pushing off the coast of Morocco by yourself after having faced incredible hurdles just seems so overwhelming.

Not only did you not survive the first 18 hours, you went on to complete this historic battle. And I feel like the, ordinary person, you know, they, um, they're [01:00:00] here 93 days and alone at sea. And they, I think they don't actually grasp what that means. So maybe you can describe a typical day.

What did survival look like?

Chris: Well, survival is different almost every single day. I mean, the first three, three to five days of that journey were horrendous. Um, everything you can imagine. Could possibly go wrong, went wrong and a whole lot more. I mean, even though I had a backup of a backup of a backup, I had wind instrument stopped working, my autopilot stopped working, my watermaker stopped working, my, um, all my solar systems went down. Um, and then I was paddling between 12 and 15 hours a day. So the only way I can put that into perspective for most normal human beings, it's like doing a full Ironman every single day. Um, Um, without having the luxury of being able to, um, change your muscle groups to other sports, [01:01:00] and also being able to then refuel after you've done your full Ironman for the day to go home and then eat all the stuff that you want to eat to refuel and then rest for whatever, uh, nine to whatever, eight, seven to 12 hours after doing a full Ironman, that every day on freeze dried food and not enough on three to four liters of water a day, where I should have been on six to ten liters of water a day, and then not having more than an hour and a half to three hours sleep and doing that every day for, 93 days.

But most people talk about 93 days and they're like, Oh, okay. 93 days. It's not too bad because you just at night, then you go home and you turn off the lights and you jump into bed like you normally would. And you wake up the following morning, 18, whatever, seven to nine hours later. Well, I never had more than an hour and a half sleep. two two stints of probably 45 minutes at a time. And I didn't have enough food to be able to like replenish what I [01:02:00] was putting that I was taking out of my body every day. And in the first three to five days, I realized that even when I was not paddling, there was actually a current that was taking me back onto land.

So the only solution I had to not get shipwrecked on the coastline was to on paddling. So I ended up paddling between 20 and 22 hours a day. Okay. Um, and then not sleeping pretty much. So it's just, I didn't get shipwrecked down the coast. Cause there was no one that was going to be able to help me or support me.

There was no team, there was no friends, there was no family, there's no coast guard, there's no one that you could call. So if I got shipwrecked down there, that was it, game over for me. Um, so only solution I had was to not sleep and get enough further away from the coastline so I didn't get shipwrecked down the coast. And that was in the first five days. And then after that, I was pretty. Impressed and happy with myself that I hadn't died yet. So I sent out a message to say, well, if I can get through the last five days, then I can get through anything. And I [01:03:00] pushed send, managed to get a signal. And when I sent that mail, what I didn't realize what I sent out to social media was that the incoming email. Information that I got back was the weather forecast, which was that I was just about to get hit by probably the biggest storm of the entire journey, which most people don't really understand when you're on a craft. That's only not even a meter wide and this much above the water. You got water coming over you all the time.

I got hit by, I don't know, 10, 15 foot wave that hit me from the side that knocked me off the craft. Just before dark that evening, thank goodness, my emergency tether engaged on the drag behind the craft, underneath the water for a couple of, 30 seconds before the craft slowed down and I pulled myself back up onto the deck. And then I realized it was too dangerous to be out on the deck in those conditions because if I got separated from my craft for more than like three and a half seconds or four seconds, if my snapped, my percentage ratio of survival wasn't like 50 percent or 20%, it was. instantly [01:04:00] game over because my craft would drift away from me faster than I could swim.

So don't get separated from your craft. Otherwise you're dead pretty much instantly. And that night was probably the most intense storm I've ever endured any on any journey. Um, I had 68 meter waves. I had 50 to 65 knots of wind, um, getting semi turned upside down in the middle of a storm in the middle of the night sounded like my little capsule was getting disintegrating around me and my capsule was only as wide as my shoulders and not as long as I can, as I'm long, so I couldn't really sleep and I was getting knocked around inside trying to, you know, make water on with a little boiling hot little lit stove to be able to make freeze dried food.

So you can, yeah, it was just a plethora of different challenges that hit me during that night. And then I've deployed the parachute anchor to be able to stabilize myself in the conditions. then I had this [01:05:00] creature that got stuck in the craft, in the parachute anchor that started dragging me through the top of these waves, into and through these, Crazy conditions.

And then I realized that I either had a whale or giant squid that was stuck in the parachute anchor, dragging me and my craft down through these giant waves. I had to try and release myself as I cut the line, then I got caught inside the line, and the craft rolled with me attached to it in the middle of the storm, in the middle of the night.

And I had, yeah, I mean, it was just. It was like so far beyond what you can possibly imagine. Realize that there was a giant squid that had actually got trapped in the parachute anchor that we tried to release. I got stuck underneath the craft when I got rolled while I was trying to release the giant squid.

And then got trapped underneath the craft, cut the line. When I cut the line, the line then ended up going through my finger and almost it down to the bone. Um, and then surviving that night, getting through to the following morning. Realizing that my main steering system had been ripped off [01:06:00] through the night, besides me almost losing my finger.

Only thing that stopped me losing my finger was that my gloves and my taped hands had sort of protected me from that. And then I got pushed into the shipping lanes and then almost got ran over by the police. between 20 and 30, um, supertankers as I got caught in like the busiest shipping channel in the world for 19 hours while I'd had no steering getting blown down the shipping lanes. and that was within the first like week, and then I, like I'd chosen the Islands to just as an exit plan to be able to escape just in case everything went to shit, which it did. um, and my watermaker still wasn't working. So I didn't know if I was going to have enough water for the journey.

Uh, my damaged a lot of my freeze dried food. So I didn't know I was going to have enough food for the journey. and then I couldn't use the Canary Islands as an extra strategy because the weather and the wind was too severe. So I couldn't go into any of the safe harbors because I had no steering. [01:07:00] I'd almost lost my finger. And I didn't have the steers to be able to get into the canary islands to be able to go in to get all the stuff And I knew if I did try and go in that I probably wouldn't be allowed to be able to leave because of everything that happened. So I decided to just carry on and I realized that I did the numbers on all the, all the different things that I still had food and water. And I figured out that it, if everything went correct after that, and I got into the. I got into the trade winds and everything moved faster and my craft got lighter that I would be a lot 30 percent lighter and then I should just have enough to be able to get to the other side. But that was a calculated decision, knowing of everything that had gone wrong and that if everything went as I was hoping, which it never does in the ocean, then I would get to the other side, one very skinny pirate oar. 

trying 

Kush: Sean Dollar [01:08:00] is a Guinness record holding big wave surfer, and also someone who came back from a traumatic brain injury that almost took his life. What stayed with me was how he now sees fear, not as something to suppress, but as something to carry and use.

This clip touches on that, but in this full episode, we go deeper into fear, identity recovery, and how to advocate for your own health. 

I've had a few big wave surfers on the show and it seems that every one of you has a different relationship to fear. So how do you handle that [01:09:00] inevitable adrenaline spike when you see this huge fear coming at you? And is there a trick you have developed to keep your mind calm in those moments?

And sometimes even sees this, opportunity like you did.

Shawn: yeah, um, we're definitely cut different for sure. All those big wave surfers look at fear in a different way. And, um, when I look at fear, I look at it as, It is an opportunity. It's an opportunity to, um, you know, it turns on that fight or flight mechanism. Do you fight or do you run? And, um, most people run and that's okay.

It's a defense, but it's also like if you turn and fight or you decide to stay, it unlocks all these senses, you know, and unlocks It's like another level of your [01:10:00] mind being able to react and be present in the moment. And so, it's, you know, like Dune, Dune has a really good quote, which is fear is the mind killer.

Most people let fear destroy them. And fear for me was always like, it used to destroy me. And then I learned like, this is the most powerful tool. and fear can allow you to get through a situation. And it just happened to be that not everyone's cut different. Um, not everyone's cut the same. I'm cut different, but like I, as I worked through that as a child and I worked through that as a young man surfing bigger waves in the ocean, I never found fear that stopped me, you know, like most people find their, their limit.

And I never did. And, um, It, I don't know, it, it, it's, that's not for everybody, you know, like, I don't know if everybody can [01:11:00] work through their fear to become fearless and in all these situations, but, um, I just could deal with it. I just, I, I could, I could, I could quantify the how, how I'm going to get through it and, um, use it to my advantage. 

Kush: I'm sure some of, some of, uh, this fear management was maybe just your natural gift, but is there anything else we can take away from what I love

Shawn: Yeah. I, you know,

Kush: using, you know, turning fear into something positive, a tool.

Shawn: I, a lot of times go and speak to. To kids about, Hey, tell us about your world records and stuff like that. And obviously this question about fear always comes up and I, I always tell the kids like this simple analogy, which is like, what if you looked at fear? Like fear is like this weight, right? Like when you're scared, you could feel it on your chest.

It's like carrying something with you, right? [01:12:00] Well. What if you played with that fear, and you put it in a backpack, and you didn't change the weight, you just carried it on your back? All right, it's one way of dealing with the same weight, this heaviness, and now, okay, now I'm a little bit more free, I can move, I, I, I, I got my fear.

I'm not ignoring it. But now, what I want, what I tell the kids to do is, imagine that that backpack is actually a rocket, and I want you to light that fear. And now use that fear to propel you to where you want to go. And so it's like, Just changing the dynamic, changing the shift in your head and playing with the fear of being like I own it I'm moving it and i'm using it, you know, and uh, I don't know if that works for everybody But that was kind of how it worked for me. 

Kush: Lisa Smith Batchen is an ultra runner who completed a [01:13:00] 586 mile crossing of Death Valley on foot, all to raise money for clean water. At the finish, she held a single bottle of water and broke down.

That moment still sits with me. Lisa reminds us that suffering when aligned with purpose, it can be sacred. You can hear the full depth of that journey in her full episode. Lisa, let's say almost 600 miles from like the lowest points to the highest points of the U. S. They seem, let's say, unfathomable to a lot of us, including me, who is not a [01:14:00] runner.

I'm going to be a a devil's advocate for a second here and ask you like a slightly contrarian question, which is in this world we live in, you know, there is, again, there is suffering widespread, um, undesired suffering at a huge scale, right? All kinds of suffering that, that is out there that people want to get out of.

The suffering that you went through was self inflicted. So what is the point of that?

squadcaster-3120_1_01-17-2025_130409: The point of it, that's a very good question. The point of it is truly to embrace one's self. You know, really, you're learning so much about yourself and about life and about other people and your surroundings and obstacles that are thrown in your [01:15:00] path and how to work through them. Um, I feel like it's helped me. Immensely in other areas of my life, realizing that we're so much stronger think we are. We're so much more capable than we think we are. We're all like big balls of clay can be, be molded. I mean, you can be molded one way or the other. way that you're molding your big ball of clay yourself is up to you. I feel like it's when I've, you know, write my books, it's when I do all these things. I haven't written any books yet, but I've certainly written them in my head, in my mind. Um, the, the, the core of challenging ourselves, I think that we are all meant to do that. And it doesn't have to be physically. It does not have to be a physical challenge.

There are all kinds of ways to [01:16:00] challenge yourself through. through sewing or you know there's whatever it is that you choose to challenge yourself to do. I want to read a hundred books in a year or whatever it is. I mean put your whole self into it and hold yourself accountable because the only person that you're is you. You know, you make your decision. I made my decision that that's what I wanted to do for that. you Um, I did it, I, I raised money for, clean water wells, the, I called it a project. You know, bad water for good water. the, when I put a purpose behind it with some passion. there's always a greater sense of the suffering changes. When I think of somebody who's holding a glass of dirty brown water and that's all they have to drink, that, that?

breaks my [01:17:00] heart. I can do something with my being an athlete to help others, that's helps the suffering because they're suffering a whole lot worse than I am. Mine's temporary. At the end of the 11 days, I got to sit down and suffering is, is gone. It's gone because not only you work through it, sure, you might be sore and your feet might hurt and you might be tired, but at the end of the day, you're, you're sleeping on a bed and eating good food and drinking clean water. And it, uh, really kind of put it in perspective to me. I'll just tell you one, when I did the last mile, okay, I had one mile left to go and it was exhausting. I wasn't ready to finish. I wanted to keep going. I wanted to keep going because I thought like, geez, [01:18:00] I felt so at peace with like just moving on my feet. My good friend, Vincent, who was on my crew. brought me a bottle of water and said, I think this, that this'll be enough to get you to the finish. I mean, it's 125 degrees and 

Kush: Oh,

squadcaster-3120_1_01-17-2025_130409: go by yourself. You're going downhill Badwater Basin minus 282, you know, feet. And I'm so emotional, very, um, and we had just found out that somebody had died out there in Death Valley walking out into the desert because he didn't have enough water. So here I am walking with 

Kush: wow.

squadcaster-3120_1_01-17-2025_130409: moving to the finish of this 586 miles, thinking that this bottle of water was my lifeline. This [01:19:00] bottle of water, the, the whole process, the whole sense of all of it came down to that bottle of water and the gift of clean water. if I didn't have that water, you know, there's no way I could have done what I did. So it's just like sensible, like thinking like, wow, this piece came over me of how fortunate we are have clean water. and that bottle of water could have saved that guy's life. It was very, it's, I know it's hard to understand, but it was so emotional for me to think of like those, putting that all together.

Kush: I can imagine Lisa because, like, I guess, you know, many, Many things in life. I mean, it's all about timing [01:20:00] and this epiphany like came to you at this most Raw moment.

squadcaster-3120_1_01-17-2025_130409: raw, a raw, raw moment. 

Kush: Yeah, I mean it got you it hit you and you know, you were at this most, uh, vulnerable point And you took that learning, though, and I think many of us, we often have that and we will overlook them and waste them. Instead, you took that and then you went on to dedicate a good part of your career towards, towards, uh, raising funds to be able to provide clean water to many of the world's thirsty.

squadcaster-3120_1_01-17-2025_130409: A lot of, a lot of the I mean, over [01:21:00] many years, it's, know, truly, winning races never really made me happy. That was not, know, it just was like, oh, big deal. I mean, honestly, it never made me happy. The true happiness and joy for me as an athlete came when I knew what I was doing was helping other people. and raising money for all different kinds of causes, all different, various of things. It just gave me a really great purpose part of my why, you know, otherwise I felt, you know, geez, leaving my kids going out at four in the morning or whatever it did. It just, and when the going got tough in any event to think of somebody else that we're helping because we're doing this. groups of people, or whatever it might be, just became such a [01:22:00] passionate part of my why I do these things.

Kush: Last but not the least, are you Whitney this far Tara Tully. She is not famous, but Tara is unforgettable. Tara lost over a hundred pounds, overcame an eating disorder, and submitted Kilimanjaro and ran 140 mile ultra marathon, which took her over 56 hours.

What helped her get there? Affirmations, words, speaking life into herself, literally writing truths on her walls when her mind [01:23:00] want to spiral. This is just a glimpse, but if you have ever needed to rewrite your whole story, go listen to the full conversation.

The anxiety and depression we spoke about. I think you also mentioned struggling with an eating disorder. How did those, um, challenges shape your relationship with running and any other kind of movement? Do you think running helped?

With some of the things you were going through, 

Tara: I think it did for me because, um, I think, when I was really stuck in that negative mindset with my body, um, it was about punishing, you know, it was like some sort of outlet. But when I shifted that into, I realized like running [01:24:00] for me wasn't about punishment that I enjoyed it.

Um, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That like I started to value my body, you know, where before I didn't value what my body can do. It shifted me into I valued my body. So it was something that I wanted to take care of. it does, you know, because it's it's really amazing what the human body can do when you feed it properly when you and now the way that I think now when you. When you foster those positive thoughts and even like in what you say that how your body responds to all that. And now I really understand that the value of the word and how you speak to your body, how you speak and you can.

Speak something negative and manifest that or you can speak something positive and whatever you speak gives energy and gives life. 

Kush: Absolutely. Yeah, the power of positive affirmations. 

Tara: [01:25:00] Right? ~And so that's something that I've developed over the years. And I have really learned, I think, and tried to master, back then it was my emotions controlled me, my emotions controlled what came out of my mouth and, um, without realizing the power that has the, that you give when you give that power to what you're saying that, you know, your, your, that grows.~

~And so that can either be something positive or something negative. Can~

Kush: you give an example, Tara, of how you learned and then trained yourself? To really harness the power of words. 

Tara: Yeah. Well, I think that's something that kind of came later. I'm not sure that I really, even back then acknowledged it, but now, um, it's something that I've really studied over the past few years, there's some spiritual mentors that have really, that I've just really gleaned a lot from.

Um, but I mean, one example. I'll give you an example of something that just happened yesterday, even that I had to catch myself in is because I have my history in the past of, um, with the pots and everything of not being able to finish races before and missing cutoffs there's, um, with, with my coach with Lisa, [01:26:00] um, I decided to sign up for a shorter race because I'm working on my speed.

And some of that is still coming back, but I'm approaching it differently. And when I first signed up for this 50 K, I did yesterday, like, some of that fear and anxiety came back of like, oh, no, they have cut offs at this point. They've cut off at that point. What if I'm too slow and I had to catch myself because I told her, I said, I'm worried about it.

And she's like, you need to get that out of your head. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I need to get that out of my head and stop saying that I am fast enough. I am. I am going to make the cutoffs and, and so, but that was just something recently where, you know, like a little change in how I was thinking about it and what I was saying, I started saying that, yes, I'm fast enough.

And so in my training, even in the few weeks leading up to it, I just, I visualize, I kept saying every time I would do like my heel repeats, I'm fast enough. And I was fast enough yesterday, you [01:27:00] know, it's something that's like speed is not something I've been good at in the past because of the pots. But now it's something that I'm overcoming.

And I was fast enough yesterday. But it all starts with our words and what we're feeding. And then because we then we start thinking differently, we start training differently. 

Kush: I love this, Dara. And, I think we could all stand to learn a little bit from your tools that you have developed. So these words that you have, can you just talk us through that process?

You write those words down. Do you have like maybe stickers around your house where as you walk by, then they remind you that this is. This is what you need to be saying and thinking. 

Tara: Well, yeah, actually, I, so one of my spiritual mentors that when I first started really doing this a few [01:28:00] years ago was Patricia King.

She wrote a book called the power of decree and, and, you know, I use, I use scripture and I go off of like, based on scripture. So I'll find like a, a. Like a word, a scripture that, um, talks about whatever problem I'm trying to overcome. And then I'll go off that and I'll write like a decree or an affirmation.

And I actually, my house that I lived in in Tucson, I actually have these all over the wall over the house. And whenever I would start to like think negatively, I would go and I would read them on the walls. I would read them out loud and read them. And then it really worked. I mean, it got me out of some, Negative thinking with some of the things I was going through at the time it got me.

and then, you know, like, 1 of them was finances where it was like needing finances. I would start writing things about like, paying off debt or whatever. And then, [01:29:00] you know, there would be people would bless me with. Money or I'd have extra job, but I wasn't planning on and so, but it all starts with how we're thinking what we're saying and aligning ourselves with those words, you know, because we make this, you know, it's not just isn't just magically happened, but it's like, you know, when you start saying it, you start.

Getting ideas or you start aligning yourself differently than if you're negative, you start seeing opportunities or you start making decisions and choices that align with what what you're saying, what you're meant, what your affirmation is, what your decree is

Kush: far for.

And okay, let's talk about, uh, again, your journey through those [01:30:00] years I believe in 2007, yeah, you ran your first marathon. And then you followed up with another marathon and then a 50 miler. So, and then you talked about how, when you

felt like you could keep going further, can you speak mindset at that point, what was it about

you at that time and what made you think that you were. The capable, the strong to have not only completed the run, but had the energy to just keep going. 

Tara: Well, I think, um, I think I have some kind of innate, um, need to see what my limit is and see if there is a limit. And I also don't like, I've always kind of been this way.

Like if I. [01:31:00] If I failed at something or if I wasn't able to complete it and somebody tells me, oh, you maybe you just can't do that. There's something in me that rebels and has to prove like, no, I really can do this. And so. So I don't know if it's something about like, you know, to prove to prove somebody wrong and I don't know that like, you don't get to tell me you don't get to put these limits on me.

You don't get to tell me what I am and I'm not capable of. So when I was hit with pots, for example, in 2010 and had some challenges with that, I had already. Like a trip plan to summit Kilimanjaro six months after, um, I was hit with that health condition and What the internet was telling me was oh, well people with POTS have at that time There wasn't a [01:32:00] lot of research on POTS.

Um, you know, you have maybe a 25 percent chance of being permanently disabled and people with POTS Have a heart Have exercise, exercise intolerance and are going to live with the some with the quality of life with somebody with congestive health, health or congestive heart disease. And there was something in me that just said, No, that's not going to be me like I had to.

grew that wrong. That wasn't going to be me and I was going to summit that mountain. And so I went from almost being bedridden to finding a doctor that supported me. This had in her own clinical experience actually found that people with POTS who pursued um, intense exercise actually fared better and were able to overcome.

And I worked with a specialized [01:33:00] dietician at that time too. To figure out, um, my body's specific nutrient needs. And we had to do a lot of testing and trial and error, but I, I did summit that mountain six months later. And not only did I summit the mountain, but, um, there were five people in my family.

That went, my, my parents, my brother, and my, my ex husband. I was the only one who was able to make it to the top of that mountain. And it was, I think because I had done months and months of preparation and I had made that affirmation, I am going to do it. And I know my body also has these challenges, so I'm going to figure out what I need to overcome these challenges before I even go.

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