Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hi, dear listeners.
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This is Kush Khandelwal.
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From the ageless athlete podcast.
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Where we tap into stories and secrets of elite performance.
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Hope you have enjoyed the conversation so far with athletes across genres.
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This is an experiment to see if a podcast.
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Across the sports holds appeal.
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Love to know what you think right.
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To me on my social media handles.
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Or email me at kush@agelessathlete.co.
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Today we have a different kind of episode.
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VSP king with one of our foremost experts on injury prevention.
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Rehab and cleaning for climbing.
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Many of us would have heard.
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And even benefited from Dr.
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Tara Nelson's compelling advice via social media, or even in person.
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Tyler is the founder of GAM for human performance.
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Where he treats clients from across the world.
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Why telehealth.
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And in his office in Utah.
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Dalla holds degrees in chiropractice and exercise where he specialized in 10 unloading.
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Very applicable to our spokes.
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He is also a certified strength and conditioning specialist and teaches conferences worldwide.
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On host of topics.
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In a sport with freewheeling roots.
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Tyler brings rigor and scientific curiosity and dispenses well research advice.
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Often by serving as his own Guinea pig for testing new training and rehab methodologies.
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With a background in big walls and hard bouldering.
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For Tyler is a talented and experienced.
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Clambered himself.
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I am excited to hear his thoughts and advancements in training and science and current tools and tricks available for us to continue excelling in the sports that we love.
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We talk about how we learn to listen to our own body.
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How calisthenics and yoga is not so useful to climbers.
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What separates the elites from us?
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Only Jos.
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And what does AI have to offer the training progression?
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Without further ado.
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Hi, Tyler.
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Good to see you.
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What's up?
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Thanks.
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Good to see you as well.
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Great to, have you on the show.
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to kick off, would love to hear a bit about, who you what do you do where you're from, and then, what did you have for, breakfast today?
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Oh dang.
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It's nice to not be on just a climbing podcast'cause I talk about finger stuff so much that it's gonna be quite relaxing in some ways to not talk about finger strength training and injury.
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So thanks for the invite.
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so a little bit about me, like I went to, undergrad, the University of Utah ended up going to chiropractic school I did master's degree in exercise science and was just like for some reason super interested in tendon loading and and because there's not that much research on it in science.
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And so I just got interested in that kind of avenue and then did my.
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masters, finish at, university of Missouri, where with the football team Mizzou helped them, and so I got a lot of exposure to the sports science side of, exercise science from there as well.
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And then since then, I've just been clinically in Utah and just like working with rock climbers, like it wasn't always working with only rock climbers, but the last four years has been almost exclusively working with rock climbers.
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And, what did you have for breakfast?
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I wish that I had a donut.
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I'm way into donuts and the climbing world.
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People that had, some toast with the way that I like to make it, which I think is really good, is like toast with honey butter.
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And then I use, like from Trader Joe's like an everything bagel seasoning.
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It's pretty
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Got it.
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What about
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sounds like a strong yeah.
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You have strong breakfast, strong sandwich game.
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To be precise, I had a bowl of, this multi seed thing that I make with the steel cut oats and hemp seeds and chia.
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And then I just, cook them with, any kinda nut milk I have.
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And then I top it out with avocado and something to sweeten up like bananas, works well.
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And I find that I'm full for like many hours.
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Tyler, you have, certainly, moved on from your, I guess your, Your master's work in working with, footballers and, you know me like many others are, avid consumers off the, excellent content you put out on, on the web through your Insta and others.
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And there's so much science and thought and planning that you put into your, into your, into your studies that you share with us.
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How did you move from working with, with footballers into working with rock climbers or let's say broadly, outdoor athletes and, and how has that, transition bin and what's the feedback that you've gotten?
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Yeah, I think, the transition was mostly just I was interested in climbing, would consider myself more of an as an educator, And that's essentially what physios and chiros and doctors do.
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They educate people on lifestyle choices and maybe try this instead of this and navigate this.
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And in the realm of like sports injuries, that's pretty much what people do.
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All of the other.
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Physical, passive things that can be applied to a person are sensory changes, they're not really fixes, So I had that kind of in the background as like a philosophical difference maybe with what I was gonna do for my job.
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So I actually didn't like having a in-person clinic because, and not that I don't like to communicate with people'cause I do, but when people come into an office, they expect to get some service and they don't want to sit and talk with you and learn about how they can help themselves.
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I always found that kind of a challenge to connect with people and have them, take it upon themselves to help them, to fix their problem or help themselves.
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And so then I went to mostly a virtual kind of business, which now I actually get a lot more enjoyment out of.
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And I don't know if that answered your question originally, but.
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It, it does.
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And, it leaves me with a couple of, breadcrumbs to, to come back to later.
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but one question Yes.
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I should ask you is, can you describe, what is it that you do today and, and how do you help, athletes?
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You talked about a virtual practice.
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What is that all about and any other things that you do?
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I have a pretty broad scope of practice.
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So like in terms of, a chiropractor, physician, chiropractor, physician in Utah, compared to a medical doctor, I have mostly a, I have the same diagnostic ability, the same ability to order images, can order blood work, et cetera.
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I cannot prescribe medication and I cannot do injections of things that are not.
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Like autologous to the person.
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So I could do PRP injections, which I don't do'cause they don't, they're not effective.
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But I can't do injections or prescribed medication.
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But aside from that, the scope of practice is very similar.
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Granted, like the difference between healthcare providers is, medical doctors go and they do a specialty and they expert, they're expert in one particular thing, right?
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And like for me, like I had a pretty like solid anatomy background and really good like connective tissue tendon adaptation rehab background.
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And so finger injuries are really common in climbers.
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And so the majority of the, what I do now when people come into my office is I do diagnostic ultrasounds on fingers.
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And so it requires a really small diagnostic probe.
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It's a really small, called a hockey stick probe.
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And I will do.
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Diagnostic ultrasound imaging and do rehab program design pretty much.
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So that's like the in-person business.
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And then the remote business is that same thing, but we just talk virtually and sometimes I'll have them get imaging done elsewhere.
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Awesome.
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thanks for sharing that.
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And I think a lot of people do benefit from a lot of the free programming that you share as well from your, from your social feeds.
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getting back to, working with different kinds of athletes.
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a lot of the focus of the show is, is teasing out, some of the, the improvements, the wisdom and, guidelines that have evolved on how to help, older athletes, keep performing as they, as they get older in years, but not so much in desired performance and longevity of, their, athletic career.
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What are some of the most common questions and say.
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Performance complaints you get from older athletes.
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So I would say older athletes.
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the good thing about having a pretty deep understanding of what the science suggests is the cause of repetitive injuries, which are like golfer's, elbow, tennis, elbow patello, femoral knee pain, Achilles tendonitis, shoulder tendinopathies, like all of, I have a pretty good understanding of those things.
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I've spent a lot of time like researching those and like staying up to date is, it's not as complicated as most people think that it is based on the pain that they have, and as we like age and we continue to be athletic, those.
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Small like tissue tears and the arthritic changes and the bone spurs and the cartilage degeneration and the disc thinning, like all those things are now considered pretty normal for a human.
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if you're not, if you're walking upright for, 50 years, 45 years, like you're gonna have some wear and tear on your body, that's like pretty par for the course.
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And so I would say we can use a lot of the, of the understanding of what we do know about the science to apply it to a whole bunch of different things.
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It's not always a direct, one-to-one comparison relationship, but it's like we can extrapolate quite a bit and successfully.
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So I think the number one question that I probably get is, can I still perform my sport?
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And the number one like limiter that I will see is people will notice, they will still be able to participate, but they will lose power output.
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So the connective tissue injuries, like the tendon based injuries or what appear to be tendon.
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Based injuries, limit performance, not participation.
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So people don't have that high-end power output.
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They're not performing it as hard as they can or think they should, but they're still doing their thing.
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I.
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I wanted to double click on that for a second about, about, being able to perform, but, maybe not at the same, same standard that person might be accustomed to.
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It's interesting that some of the people I've been speaking to, some athletes who are in their, fifties, sixties, and even seventies, some of them have actually seen performance gains in those later years.
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And actually this, I'm talking both surfers and climbers and one thing that I'm understanding is some of these athletes have approached, let's say.
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Non-conventional advice for training at older, ages, such as, getting on system boards and training for power and, doing things that, you don't normally see, older, climbers do.
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So, Wanted to hear your opinion on how some of these people are able to actually utilize, modern, demanding training apparatus and keep improving in those, later years.
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And some of these are, I would say, more elite athletes.
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what are some of the lessons that we could glean for?
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the more average person out there who is also getting older might also have some injuries, but wants to, wants to not, back down and try to get whatever improvement they can.
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So I think with maybe what I said previously is.
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in the context of people that I talk to that have pain complaints, so typically, that will have pain complaints, will have a performance loss with their sport for a period of time until it's managed.
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But I absolutely agree with you.
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That doesn't mean that athletes can't continue to progress in their sport.
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And that's been my experience as well.
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And I think the easiest way to think about how that's possible is most people that are older in years and they're participating in their sport, they have other shit going on in their life.
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They like have a job and they have a family and they like, are not obsessed with just like doing obnoxious training volumes.
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Like they literally can have a better training program and they just recover better.
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They have better quality food, they have better quality sleep habits.
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Like all of those things allow athletes to recover better from their workouts and the addition of new things like a, a moon board or something or, the tension board.
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To increase your power output.
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that's not risky at all for someone that has a climbing background and it's really just giving them that little extra effort during their session.
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And as long as they don't have two frequent sessions and they're pretty low volume, they'll only just get better because they've already put in a lot of the physical loading requirements over the years to allow their connective tissues to adapt and tolerate that high stress stuff.
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They've already put in all the groundwork and the framework for increasing their performance, but now they're recovering more from it and they see those performance improvements, which is very cool.
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Absolutely no, I love that.
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And you're right.
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one should, separate out, these two tracks, which is the, the injury prevention and the injury rehab track.
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And then second being the, the training and the, the performance improvement track.
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And I think you provide services in both arenas.
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I personally benefited from the, training, end of your, your services because I, I worked with you a little bit last year to get on a training plan myself.
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Unfortunately, my training ended prematurely because I got injured.
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And then I've been working more on rehabbing from injuries and at some point I hope to get back on, more structured, training regimen.
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Getting back, actually.
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let's talk a little bit about injuries first on the injury spectrum.
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can you help, us understand, what is, let's say good pain.
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Versus what is bad pain?
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Because I think a lot of us, because we love our sport so much, we keep doing the training, keep doing the sport despite feeling pain, despite feeling soreness and, where you know, where somebody else might have stopped.
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So I think there are maybe some kinds of, some kinds of fatigue slash pain slash soreness where one should maybe try to push through and perhaps there's some other kinds of pain where if you push your body to do certain things, you might actually, exacerbate the condition and, cause let's say harm that's, harder to recover from.
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Yeah.
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I think maybe one other thing to add, bef from the, a couple of things you said before is like the strength training and the rehab, I think it's important for people to know that they're like the same thing pretty much.
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Like I usually tell people that a deload or a program like time off or weeks to months off is a really good time to do strength training.
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And so the reason that like I my business is more catered to, I.
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Athletes that have pain complaints, maybe they have acute injuries, but mostly it's pain complaints.
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They need to restructure their whole training program.
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I don't just need to give them a bunch of random things to do.
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And so the biggest, let's say like waste of people's time, in my opinion, is to be able to go into a clinic like people did to mine when I first had an office and get some physical service to their body.
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And then the majority of the time spent is doing that thing, but then they leave.
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I didn't really help that person all that much.
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I told them as much as I could, but they weren't really focused on that.
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And so it's really about like actually being more comprehensive with the person in front of you and understanding what their life is like and what they do.
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And then all we need to do is we have to adjust all the things though.
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Like we can't just give them stuff to do, which is confusing'cause a lot of people when they have an injury, they think I need to do rehab.
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But then rehab to them in their mind kinda looks like.
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Low intensity range of motion, lots of passive stretching, like all the things that, there's not science to support that.
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Those things are helpful in the context of getting or necessary to getting an athlete back to what they're doing.
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They can be used as stepping stones for people with a lot of sensitivity.
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But that's not my clientele.
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Most of my clientele are people that are doing too much and if I give someone that's doing too much more stuff to do without taking away a bunch of stuff that's not really helping'em, that's a waste of their time.
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So I wanna make sure we add that in.
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'cause I think that's really confusing for people in general.
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They think rehab is like low intensity, easy range of motion, et cetera.
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But it can be strength training and there's plenty of evidence to support that.
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Strength training is the closest thing to a miracle cure as we have for.
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The aging athlete or pain complaints.
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It's not a miracle cure by any means, and every person is different, but it's pretty much the closest thing that we have as far as we know with just like general wellbeing and health, And then, oh, go ahead.
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no, absolutely, and I think this is one of those things I try to even tell my parents and people of their generation that, as older athletes, or just older humans, one thing that does, go outta control is muscle loss.
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As one gets older, exponentially lose more muscle, and one of the more, sure shot.
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methods to combat is strength training with, not with sissy weights, but, with heavy weights.
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one other question.
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So going back to understanding pain, let's say I went out for run.
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I come back, I have knee pain, right?
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And then that, that pain causes me to stop and now I have to limp back home.
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I wake up the next day.
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I may still have pain, I may not have pain.
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So what are maybe some things we can listen to inform us whether the pain we had requires us to either go see a doctor or the pain is, let's say more just the body reacting to, to stress to, to a long run.
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And we should do something different to, To get back to, to form, and it's not really an injury.
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I think, and that was great that you interject again because I forgot the question'cause I went off on a tangent, so sorry.
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But I think the.
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I think I, I like to teach people that there's not really such a thing as good pain.
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Like we made that term up because we wanna be stubborn doing the stuff that we don't wanna stop doing because of a pain complaint.
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Assuming that you have to feel pain to know that you're doing the right thing, that's not true either.
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There's good reason to maybe push into a little bit of pain to know that it's okay, but that doesn't mean that you have to do that every time to make pain go away either.
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So another thing when you mention, you know when something pops up, so let's say you're out running and your knee gets sore, right?
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It's not likely that it's that run that actually made your knee sore.
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Maybe you landed weird, you twisted it, whatever.
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But when I talk to my athletes on a call, I say, tell me what you've been doing the last couple months.
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And every single time there has been a sharp increase in some load, either a new load or the original load.
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Beyond the athlete's current capacity to adapt to that load.
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And so that injury did not happen that day, even though they felt it.
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So your knee injury didn't happen that day, even though you it that day.
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It had been coming on for months of time usually.
00:19:20.211 --> 00:19:23.781
And it always is attributed to something in their life, right?
00:19:23.781 --> 00:19:29.152
Maybe it's physical load, maybe it's work stress, maybe it's moving, maybe it's not sleeping.
00:19:29.152 --> 00:19:38.632
Like it's not a simple thing to really pinpoint or nail down to one thing, but the physical loading is the easiest thing to manage.
00:19:39.132 --> 00:19:44.382
And so if athlete goes on a run and they're sore, like the next day they're sore again.
00:19:44.682 --> 00:19:53.261
You have to find a dosage of load that they can do where they break that behavior or that outcome, where the next day they have pain.
00:19:53.291 --> 00:19:56.561
Because that becomes an expectation for the athlete.
00:19:56.567 --> 00:20:00.852
And if that becomes the expectation, then that becomes the problem in itself in some cases.
00:20:01.352 --> 00:20:13.662
And so I would say for runners, like the kind of the like knee jerk reaction for runners is okay, cool, you, you love doing long distance, low intensity, moderate paced exercise, right?
00:20:13.662 --> 00:20:15.942
And that's all they do all the damn time, right?
00:20:16.122 --> 00:20:18.582
That's only one kind of load to your tendons.
00:20:19.031 --> 00:20:26.112
It's a very like low force, moderate velocity strain inducing kind of load to the connective tissues.
00:20:26.172 --> 00:20:37.061
That's very different than strength training, which is very high intensity, very low volume, very stress inducing to the MA actual material properties of the connective tissue.
00:20:37.481 --> 00:20:46.182
So those athletes need to dump a bunch of the volume they need to build up some tolerance in their tissue, and then they need to work back into running again.
00:20:46.682 --> 00:20:48.061
makes so much sense.
00:20:48.061 --> 00:20:57.811
I think the two things I, hear are one is, people try to, ramp up their training, running, climbing, what have you too quickly, and then the body, complaints.
00:20:58.321 --> 00:21:10.192
And then the second thing might be that, sometimes often we have injuries that might stay asymptomatic for a while until you push them beyond an envelope, and then the body just throws its hands up.
00:21:10.192 --> 00:21:13.152
And I think that's maybe what happened with my shoulder, for many years.
00:21:13.152 --> 00:21:17.221
I kept pushing it, with just some niggles, just some loss in range of motion.
00:21:17.221 --> 00:21:21.372
And then one fine day, I couldn't raise my, arm above my ear.
00:21:21.432 --> 00:21:24.041
And I think that was my body saying, okay, enough is enough.
00:21:24.336 --> 00:21:31.321
you have pushed through these, other, signals I gave you, and now I don't want you to go and, do this particular thing anymore.
00:21:31.321 --> 00:21:32.701
I want you to go and treat yourself.
00:21:33.332 --> 00:21:42.576
one thing, also, adding on is, often, Tyler, if you're told, Hey, listen to your body, if, if doing something, hurts, stop doing it.
00:21:42.646 --> 00:21:47.800
I know you often advocate for continuing to practice the sport in certain cases.
00:21:47.800 --> 00:21:56.320
So let's say somebody, like you said, somebody has like a finger injury or finger pain, somebody has knee pain, maybe elbow pain.
00:21:56.891 --> 00:22:04.145
And again, when I started climbing, I was told, Hey, you ha, you're having like elbow pain, rest that elbow, do the other modalities, with.
00:22:04.611 --> 00:22:05.840
Compression and ice.
00:22:06.290 --> 00:22:11.181
And then don't stress that, that elbow for some time give it complete rest.
