Feb. 16, 2024

#8 What Pain Teaches — Training Hard Without Breaking Down

#8 What Pain Teaches — Training Hard Without Breaking Down
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Season 1

When I Invited Dr Tyler Nelson to come on the show, I knew he would drop the hammer on climbing training beta, but little did I know how wowed I’d be with the applicability of his knowledge across sports. Tyler’s lessons on training smarter, preventing injuries, and peak performance, based on the guiding principles of sports science, are spot on for climbers. However stay tuned in cyclists, runners, surfers, et al, as they are relevant for you as well!

Listen in for,

😵Why yoga and calisthenics are fun, but poorly transfer to climbing

🎖️ Why one should be careful of sports advice from pro athletes

📈 How to balance performance plans with listening to your body so progress feels sustainable, not forced

💪 Why lifters have it right - strength training is like a miracle drug against aging and injury for us 

🧗‍♂️ What is “good pain” and when should you continue OR stop pushing yourself through injury. Arthritis got you down, listen on! 

👆 Why strong fingers still matter if you want to upgrade climbing ability - and how to build resilience despite janky, swollen digits 🤚


Find and follow Ageless Athlete everywhere you get your podcasts 🎧



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WEBVTT

00:01:12.983 --> 00:01:14.213
Hi, dear listeners.

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This is Kush Khandelwal.

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From the ageless athlete podcast.

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Where we tap into stories and secrets of elite performance.

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Hope you have enjoyed the conversation so far with athletes across genres.

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This is an experiment to see if a podcast.

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Across the sports holds appeal.

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Love to know what you think right.

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To me on my social media handles.

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Or email me at kush@agelessathlete.co.

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Today we have a different kind of episode.

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VSP king with one of our foremost experts on injury prevention.

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Rehab and cleaning for climbing.

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Many of us would have heard.

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And even benefited from Dr.

00:02:01.227 --> 00:02:06.117
Tara Nelson's compelling advice via social media, or even in person.

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Tyler is the founder of GAM for human performance.

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Where he treats clients from across the world.

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Why telehealth.

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And in his office in Utah.

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Dalla holds degrees in chiropractice and exercise where he specialized in 10 unloading.

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Very applicable to our spokes.

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He is also a certified strength and conditioning specialist and teaches conferences worldwide.

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On host of topics.

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In a sport with freewheeling roots.

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Tyler brings rigor and scientific curiosity and dispenses well research advice.

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Often by serving as his own Guinea pig for testing new training and rehab methodologies.

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With a background in big walls and hard bouldering.

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For Tyler is a talented and experienced.

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Clambered himself.

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I am excited to hear his thoughts and advancements in training and science and current tools and tricks available for us to continue excelling in the sports that we love.

00:03:09.408 --> 00:03:12.257
We talk about how we learn to listen to our own body.

00:03:12.737 --> 00:03:16.697
How calisthenics and yoga is not so useful to climbers.

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What separates the elites from us?

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Only Jos.

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And what does AI have to offer the training progression?

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Without further ado.

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Hi, Tyler.

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Good to see you.

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What's up?

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Thanks.

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Good to see you as well.

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Great to, have you on the show.

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to kick off, would love to hear a bit about, who you what do you do where you're from, and then, what did you have for, breakfast today?

00:03:48.584 --> 00:03:49.213
Oh dang.

00:03:49.454 --> 00:04:00.928
It's nice to not be on just a climbing podcast'cause I talk about finger stuff so much that it's gonna be quite relaxing in some ways to not talk about finger strength training and injury.

00:04:00.928 --> 00:04:02.829
So thanks for the invite.

00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:21.055
so a little bit about me, like I went to, undergrad, the University of Utah ended up going to chiropractic school I did master's degree in exercise science and was just like for some reason super interested in tendon loading and and because there's not that much research on it in science.

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And so I just got interested in that kind of avenue and then did my.

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masters, finish at, university of Missouri, where with the football team Mizzou helped them, and so I got a lot of exposure to the sports science side of, exercise science from there as well.

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And then since then, I've just been clinically in Utah and just like working with rock climbers, like it wasn't always working with only rock climbers, but the last four years has been almost exclusively working with rock climbers.

00:04:47.625 --> 00:04:49.334
And, what did you have for breakfast?

00:04:49.689 --> 00:04:51.050
I wish that I had a donut.

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I'm way into donuts and the climbing world.

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People that had, some toast with the way that I like to make it, which I think is really good, is like toast with honey butter.

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And then I use, like from Trader Joe's like an everything bagel seasoning.

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It's pretty

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Got it.

00:05:06.969 --> 00:05:07.269
What about

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sounds like a strong yeah.

00:05:09.404 --> 00:05:11.534
You have strong breakfast, strong sandwich game.

00:05:11.534 --> 00:05:18.844
To be precise, I had a bowl of, this multi seed thing that I make with the steel cut oats and hemp seeds and chia.

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And then I just, cook them with, any kinda nut milk I have.

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And then I top it out with avocado and something to sweeten up like bananas, works well.

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And I find that I'm full for like many hours.

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Tyler, you have, certainly, moved on from your, I guess your, Your master's work in working with, footballers and, you know me like many others are, avid consumers off the, excellent content you put out on, on the web through your Insta and others.

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And there's so much science and thought and planning that you put into your, into your, into your studies that you share with us.

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How did you move from working with, with footballers into working with rock climbers or let's say broadly, outdoor athletes and, and how has that, transition bin and what's the feedback that you've gotten?

00:06:06.427 --> 00:06:17.376
Yeah, I think, the transition was mostly just I was interested in climbing, would consider myself more of an as an educator, And that's essentially what physios and chiros and doctors do.

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They educate people on lifestyle choices and maybe try this instead of this and navigate this.

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And in the realm of like sports injuries, that's pretty much what people do.

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All of the other.

00:06:28.725 --> 00:06:40.906
Physical, passive things that can be applied to a person are sensory changes, they're not really fixes, So I had that kind of in the background as like a philosophical difference maybe with what I was gonna do for my job.

00:06:40.906 --> 00:06:57.001
So I actually didn't like having a in-person clinic because, and not that I don't like to communicate with people'cause I do, but when people come into an office, they expect to get some service and they don't want to sit and talk with you and learn about how they can help themselves.

00:06:57.141 --> 00:07:06.641
I always found that kind of a challenge to connect with people and have them, take it upon themselves to help them, to fix their problem or help themselves.

00:07:06.646 --> 00:07:13.771
And so then I went to mostly a virtual kind of business, which now I actually get a lot more enjoyment out of.

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And I don't know if that answered your question originally, but.

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It, it does.

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And, it leaves me with a couple of, breadcrumbs to, to come back to later.

00:07:22.225 --> 00:07:23.186
but one question Yes.

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I should ask you is, can you describe, what is it that you do today and, and how do you help, athletes?

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You talked about a virtual practice.

00:07:32.944 --> 00:07:35.735
What is that all about and any other things that you do?

00:07:36.235 --> 00:07:38.514
I have a pretty broad scope of practice.

00:07:38.965 --> 00:07:52.740
So like in terms of, a chiropractor, physician, chiropractor, physician in Utah, compared to a medical doctor, I have mostly a, I have the same diagnostic ability, the same ability to order images, can order blood work, et cetera.

00:07:52.829 --> 00:07:57.540
I cannot prescribe medication and I cannot do injections of things that are not.

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Like autologous to the person.

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So I could do PRP injections, which I don't do'cause they don't, they're not effective.

00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:05.305
But I can't do injections or prescribed medication.

00:08:05.305 --> 00:08:07.795
But aside from that, the scope of practice is very similar.

00:08:08.185 --> 00:08:17.144
Granted, like the difference between healthcare providers is, medical doctors go and they do a specialty and they expert, they're expert in one particular thing, right?

00:08:17.144 --> 00:08:25.985
And like for me, like I had a pretty like solid anatomy background and really good like connective tissue tendon adaptation rehab background.

00:08:25.985 --> 00:08:29.394
And so finger injuries are really common in climbers.

00:08:29.394 --> 00:08:35.814
And so the majority of the, what I do now when people come into my office is I do diagnostic ultrasounds on fingers.

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And so it requires a really small diagnostic probe.

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It's a really small, called a hockey stick probe.

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And I will do.

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Diagnostic ultrasound imaging and do rehab program design pretty much.

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So that's like the in-person business.

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And then the remote business is that same thing, but we just talk virtually and sometimes I'll have them get imaging done elsewhere.

00:08:56.819 --> 00:08:57.120
Awesome.

00:08:57.500 --> 00:08:58.309
thanks for sharing that.

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And I think a lot of people do benefit from a lot of the free programming that you share as well from your, from your social feeds.

00:09:04.389 --> 00:09:07.220
getting back to, working with different kinds of athletes.

00:09:07.409 --> 00:09:25.779
a lot of the focus of the show is, is teasing out, some of the, the improvements, the wisdom and, guidelines that have evolved on how to help, older athletes, keep performing as they, as they get older in years, but not so much in desired performance and longevity of, their, athletic career.

00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:31.399
What are some of the most common questions and say.

00:09:31.970 --> 00:09:37.579
Performance complaints you get from older athletes.

00:09:38.079 --> 00:09:40.269
So I would say older athletes.

00:09:40.919 --> 00:10:01.360
the good thing about having a pretty deep understanding of what the science suggests is the cause of repetitive injuries, which are like golfer's, elbow, tennis, elbow patello, femoral knee pain, Achilles tendonitis, shoulder tendinopathies, like all of, I have a pretty good understanding of those things.

00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:15.416
I've spent a lot of time like researching those and like staying up to date is, it's not as complicated as most people think that it is based on the pain that they have, and as we like age and we continue to be athletic, those.

00:10:15.911 --> 00:11:24.391
Small like tissue tears and the arthritic changes and the bone spurs and the cartilage degeneration and the disc thinning, like all those things are now considered pretty normal for a human.

00:11:24.391 --> 00:11:33.250
if you're not, if you're walking upright for, 50 years, 45 years, like you're gonna have some wear and tear on your body, that's like pretty par for the course.

00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:42.161
And so I would say we can use a lot of the, of the understanding of what we do know about the science to apply it to a whole bunch of different things.

00:11:42.161 --> 00:11:49.036
It's not always a direct, one-to-one comparison relationship, but it's like we can extrapolate quite a bit and successfully.

00:11:49.246 --> 00:11:53.266
So I think the number one question that I probably get is, can I still perform my sport?

00:11:53.715 --> 00:12:01.875
And the number one like limiter that I will see is people will notice, they will still be able to participate, but they will lose power output.

00:12:02.375 --> 00:12:07.955
So the connective tissue injuries, like the tendon based injuries or what appear to be tendon.

00:12:08.391 --> 00:12:12.651
Based injuries, limit performance, not participation.

00:12:13.151 --> 00:12:16.401
So people don't have that high-end power output.

00:12:16.401 --> 00:12:21.230
They're not performing it as hard as they can or think they should, but they're still doing their thing.

00:12:21.730 --> 00:12:21.851
I.

00:12:22.351 --> 00:12:33.221
I wanted to double click on that for a second about, about, being able to perform, but, maybe not at the same, same standard that person might be accustomed to.

00:12:33.701 --> 00:12:43.980
It's interesting that some of the people I've been speaking to, some athletes who are in their, fifties, sixties, and even seventies, some of them have actually seen performance gains in those later years.

00:12:43.986 --> 00:12:53.125
And actually this, I'm talking both surfers and climbers and one thing that I'm understanding is some of these athletes have approached, let's say.

00:12:53.500 --> 00:13:05.326
Non-conventional advice for training at older, ages, such as, getting on system boards and training for power and, doing things that, you don't normally see, older, climbers do.

00:13:05.609 --> 00:13:16.885
So, Wanted to hear your opinion on how some of these people are able to actually utilize, modern, demanding training apparatus and keep improving in those, later years.

00:13:16.891 --> 00:13:20.625
And some of these are, I would say, more elite athletes.

00:13:20.675 --> 00:13:22.836
what are some of the lessons that we could glean for?

00:13:22.836 --> 00:13:33.020
the more average person out there who is also getting older might also have some injuries, but wants to, wants to not, back down and try to get whatever improvement they can.

00:13:33.520 --> 00:13:36.786
So I think with maybe what I said previously is.

00:13:37.286 --> 00:13:49.226
in the context of people that I talk to that have pain complaints, so typically, that will have pain complaints, will have a performance loss with their sport for a period of time until it's managed.

00:13:49.615 --> 00:13:51.385
But I absolutely agree with you.

00:13:51.476 --> 00:13:55.346
That doesn't mean that athletes can't continue to progress in their sport.

00:13:55.346 --> 00:13:57.385
And that's been my experience as well.

00:13:57.776 --> 00:14:07.556
And I think the easiest way to think about how that's possible is most people that are older in years and they're participating in their sport, they have other shit going on in their life.

00:14:07.615 --> 00:14:15.266
They like have a job and they have a family and they like, are not obsessed with just like doing obnoxious training volumes.

00:14:15.266 --> 00:14:20.635
Like they literally can have a better training program and they just recover better.

00:14:20.635 --> 00:14:24.625
They have better quality food, they have better quality sleep habits.

00:14:24.625 --> 00:14:34.300
Like all of those things allow athletes to recover better from their workouts and the addition of new things like a, a moon board or something or, the tension board.

00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:36.240
To increase your power output.

00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:45.181
that's not risky at all for someone that has a climbing background and it's really just giving them that little extra effort during their session.

00:14:45.451 --> 00:15:01.951
And as long as they don't have two frequent sessions and they're pretty low volume, they'll only just get better because they've already put in a lot of the physical loading requirements over the years to allow their connective tissues to adapt and tolerate that high stress stuff.

00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:11.691
They've already put in all the groundwork and the framework for increasing their performance, but now they're recovering more from it and they see those performance improvements, which is very cool.

00:15:12.191 --> 00:15:13.296
Absolutely no, I love that.

00:15:13.296 --> 00:15:14.105
And you're right.

00:15:14.135 --> 00:15:20.006
one should, separate out, these two tracks, which is the, the injury prevention and the injury rehab track.

00:15:20.516 --> 00:15:24.736
And then second being the, the training and the, the performance improvement track.

00:15:24.736 --> 00:15:27.086
And I think you provide services in both arenas.

00:15:27.506 --> 00:15:35.965
I personally benefited from the, training, end of your, your services because I, I worked with you a little bit last year to get on a training plan myself.

00:15:36.355 --> 00:15:40.240
Unfortunately, my training ended prematurely because I got injured.

00:15:40.300 --> 00:15:47.236
And then I've been working more on rehabbing from injuries and at some point I hope to get back on, more structured, training regimen.

00:15:47.736 --> 00:15:48.816
Getting back, actually.

00:15:48.826 --> 00:15:52.986
let's talk a little bit about injuries first on the injury spectrum.

00:15:53.536 --> 00:15:57.340
can you help, us understand, what is, let's say good pain.

00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.760
Versus what is bad pain?

00:15:59.760 --> 00:16:13.250
Because I think a lot of us, because we love our sport so much, we keep doing the training, keep doing the sport despite feeling pain, despite feeling soreness and, where you know, where somebody else might have stopped.

00:16:13.881 --> 00:16:33.560
So I think there are maybe some kinds of, some kinds of fatigue slash pain slash soreness where one should maybe try to push through and perhaps there's some other kinds of pain where if you push your body to do certain things, you might actually, exacerbate the condition and, cause let's say harm that's, harder to recover from.

00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:34.351
Yeah.

00:16:34.375 --> 00:16:45.026
I think maybe one other thing to add, bef from the, a couple of things you said before is like the strength training and the rehab, I think it's important for people to know that they're like the same thing pretty much.

00:16:45.506 --> 00:16:56.066
Like I usually tell people that a deload or a program like time off or weeks to months off is a really good time to do strength training.

00:16:56.455 --> 00:17:00.115
And so the reason that like I my business is more catered to, I.

00:17:00.611 --> 00:17:05.651
Athletes that have pain complaints, maybe they have acute injuries, but mostly it's pain complaints.

00:17:05.830 --> 00:17:09.401
They need to restructure their whole training program.

00:17:09.730 --> 00:17:12.405
I don't just need to give them a bunch of random things to do.

00:17:12.945 --> 00:17:26.256
And so the biggest, let's say like waste of people's time, in my opinion, is to be able to go into a clinic like people did to mine when I first had an office and get some physical service to their body.

00:17:26.885 --> 00:17:31.476
And then the majority of the time spent is doing that thing, but then they leave.

00:17:31.895 --> 00:17:33.786
I didn't really help that person all that much.

00:17:33.786 --> 00:17:36.816
I told them as much as I could, but they weren't really focused on that.

00:17:36.865 --> 00:17:44.425
And so it's really about like actually being more comprehensive with the person in front of you and understanding what their life is like and what they do.

00:17:44.425 --> 00:17:47.486
And then all we need to do is we have to adjust all the things though.

00:17:48.026 --> 00:17:54.090
Like we can't just give them stuff to do, which is confusing'cause a lot of people when they have an injury, they think I need to do rehab.

00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:57.330
But then rehab to them in their mind kinda looks like.

00:17:57.675 --> 00:18:04.506
Low intensity range of motion, lots of passive stretching, like all the things that, there's not science to support that.

00:18:04.506 --> 00:18:11.105
Those things are helpful in the context of getting or necessary to getting an athlete back to what they're doing.

00:18:11.496 --> 00:18:15.395
They can be used as stepping stones for people with a lot of sensitivity.

00:18:15.756 --> 00:18:16.955
But that's not my clientele.

00:18:16.955 --> 00:18:27.816
Most of my clientele are people that are doing too much and if I give someone that's doing too much more stuff to do without taking away a bunch of stuff that's not really helping'em, that's a waste of their time.

00:18:28.365 --> 00:18:29.800
So I wanna make sure we add that in.

00:18:29.830 --> 00:18:32.921
'cause I think that's really confusing for people in general.

00:18:32.921 --> 00:18:38.441
They think rehab is like low intensity, easy range of motion, et cetera.

00:18:38.441 --> 00:18:41.715
But it can be strength training and there's plenty of evidence to support that.

00:18:42.016 --> 00:18:46.375
Strength training is the closest thing to a miracle cure as we have for.

00:18:46.736 --> 00:18:48.596
The aging athlete or pain complaints.

00:18:48.596 --> 00:18:58.471
It's not a miracle cure by any means, and every person is different, but it's pretty much the closest thing that we have as far as we know with just like general wellbeing and health, And then, oh, go ahead.

00:18:58.971 --> 00:19:13.615
no, absolutely, and I think this is one of those things I try to even tell my parents and people of their generation that, as older athletes, or just older humans, one thing that does, go outta control is muscle loss.

00:19:13.676 --> 00:19:18.901
As one gets older, exponentially lose more muscle, and one of the more, sure shot.

00:19:19.411 --> 00:19:25.260
methods to combat is strength training with, not with sissy weights, but, with heavy weights.

00:19:25.311 --> 00:19:26.391
one other question.

00:19:26.631 --> 00:19:32.667
So going back to understanding pain, let's say I went out for run.

00:19:32.967 --> 00:19:35.487
I come back, I have knee pain, right?

00:19:35.576 --> 00:19:39.762
And then that, that pain causes me to stop and now I have to limp back home.

00:19:39.942 --> 00:19:40.991
I wake up the next day.

00:19:41.542 --> 00:19:43.582
I may still have pain, I may not have pain.

00:19:43.642 --> 00:20:03.112
So what are maybe some things we can listen to inform us whether the pain we had requires us to either go see a doctor or the pain is, let's say more just the body reacting to, to stress to, to a long run.

00:20:03.471 --> 00:20:09.537
And we should do something different to, To get back to, to form, and it's not really an injury.

00:20:10.037 --> 00:20:15.422
I think, and that was great that you interject again because I forgot the question'cause I went off on a tangent, so sorry.

00:20:15.812 --> 00:20:16.902
But I think the.

00:20:17.402 --> 00:20:21.572
I think I, I like to teach people that there's not really such a thing as good pain.

00:20:21.662 --> 00:20:28.951
Like we made that term up because we wanna be stubborn doing the stuff that we don't wanna stop doing because of a pain complaint.

00:20:29.451 --> 00:20:35.032
Assuming that you have to feel pain to know that you're doing the right thing, that's not true either.

00:20:35.542 --> 00:20:45.572
There's good reason to maybe push into a little bit of pain to know that it's okay, but that doesn't mean that you have to do that every time to make pain go away either.

00:20:45.572 --> 00:20:51.022
So another thing when you mention, you know when something pops up, so let's say you're out running and your knee gets sore, right?

00:20:51.231 --> 00:20:54.832
It's not likely that it's that run that actually made your knee sore.

00:20:54.862 --> 00:20:57.022
Maybe you landed weird, you twisted it, whatever.

00:20:57.352 --> 00:21:01.991
But when I talk to my athletes on a call, I say, tell me what you've been doing the last couple months.

00:21:02.142 --> 00:21:09.642
And every single time there has been a sharp increase in some load, either a new load or the original load.

00:21:10.017 --> 00:21:14.667
Beyond the athlete's current capacity to adapt to that load.

00:21:15.086 --> 00:21:18.567
And so that injury did not happen that day, even though they felt it.

00:21:18.717 --> 00:21:21.442
So your knee injury didn't happen that day, even though you it that day.

00:21:21.892 --> 00:21:25.282
It had been coming on for months of time usually.

00:21:25.642 --> 00:21:29.211
And it always is attributed to something in their life, right?

00:21:29.211 --> 00:21:34.582
Maybe it's physical load, maybe it's work stress, maybe it's moving, maybe it's not sleeping.

00:21:34.582 --> 00:21:44.062
Like it's not a simple thing to really pinpoint or nail down to one thing, but the physical loading is the easiest thing to manage.

00:21:44.562 --> 00:21:49.812
And so if athlete goes on a run and they're sore, like the next day they're sore again.

00:21:50.112 --> 00:21:58.692
You have to find a dosage of load that they can do where they break that behavior or that outcome, where the next day they have pain.

00:21:58.721 --> 00:22:01.991
Because that becomes an expectation for the athlete.

00:22:01.997 --> 00:22:06.282
And if that becomes the expectation, then that becomes the problem in itself in some cases.

00:22:06.782 --> 00:22:19.092
And so I would say for runners, like the kind of the like knee jerk reaction for runners is okay, cool, you, you love doing long distance, low intensity, moderate paced exercise, right?

00:22:19.092 --> 00:22:21.372
And that's all they do all the damn time, right?

00:22:21.552 --> 00:22:24.012
That's only one kind of load to your tendons.

00:22:24.461 --> 00:22:31.542
It's a very like low force, moderate velocity strain inducing kind of load to the connective tissues.

00:22:31.602 --> 00:22:42.491
That's very different than strength training, which is very high intensity, very low volume, very stress inducing to the MA actual material properties of the connective tissue.

00:22:42.912 --> 00:22:51.612
So those athletes need to dump a bunch of the volume they need to build up some tolerance in their tissue, and then they need to work back into running again.

00:22:52.112 --> 00:22:53.491
makes so much sense.

00:22:53.491 --> 00:23:03.241
I think the two things I, hear are one is, people try to, ramp up their training, running, climbing, what have you too quickly, and then the body, complaints.

00:23:03.751 --> 00:23:15.622
And then the second thing might be that, sometimes often we have injuries that might stay asymptomatic for a while until you push them beyond an envelope, and then the body just throws its hands up.

00:23:15.622 --> 00:23:18.582
And I think that's maybe what happened with my shoulder, for many years.

00:23:18.582 --> 00:23:22.652
I kept pushing it, with just some niggles, just some loss in range of motion.

00:23:22.652 --> 00:23:26.802
And then one fine day, I couldn't raise my, arm above my ear.

00:23:26.862 --> 00:23:29.471
And I think that was my body saying, okay, enough is enough.

00:23:29.767 --> 00:23:36.751
you have pushed through these, other, signals I gave you, and now I don't want you to go and, do this particular thing anymore.

00:23:36.751 --> 00:23:38.132
I want you to go and treat yourself.

00:23:38.762 --> 00:23:48.007
one thing, also, adding on is, often, Tyler, if you're told, Hey, listen to your body, if, if doing something, hurts, stop doing it.

00:23:48.076 --> 00:23:53.230
I know you often advocate for continuing to practice the sport in certain cases.

00:23:53.230 --> 00:24:01.750
So let's say somebody, like you said, somebody has like a finger injury or finger pain, somebody has knee pain, maybe elbow pain.

00:24:02.321 --> 00:24:09.576
And again, when I started climbing, I was told, Hey, you ha, you're having like elbow pain, rest that elbow, do the other modalities, with.

00:24:10.041 --> 00:24:11.270
Compression and ice.

00:24:11.721 --> 00:24:16.611
And then don't stress that, that elbow for some time give it complete rest.

00:24:16.611 --> 00:24:19.901
But I think sometimes you advocate for, continuing that activity.

00:24:19.901 --> 00:24:27.140
So I think you touched on this earlier, but would love for you to expound upon how you, advice in certain cases to continue the sport.

00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:35.230
Yeah, I think in rare circumstances, is it con what I would is considered risky to load like a sports injury.

00:24:35.730 --> 00:24:42.000
Obviously, like the exceptions would be like shoulder dislocations, ACL tears, full Achilles ruptures.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:51.210
there's the obvious, fractures, there's the obvious exceptions to the rule, but most people that are getting a pops up one day and it sticks around a long time.

00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:58.500
Those are not injuries that should be considered red or even yellow flags for mechanical loading and physical stress.

00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:03.330
The type of physical stress I think, is important to differentiate for the person.

00:25:03.335 --> 00:26:07.214
it needs to change a little bit in some way and the dosage needs to change, but very rarely is it like a hard, you shouldn't put load on that thing.

00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:14.400
At the beginning, if someone has like an acute flare up, let's say your shoulder, like it's okay to take a week off and not do anything.

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:23.039
Like it is okay to like, if the individual feels like it's makes sense to not load, to let it chill out.

00:26:23.100 --> 00:26:26.130
I think that's pretty intuitive, and you kinda limp around for a little bit.

00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:36.370
But if I do that for too long, like the actual quantity or the amount of tissue that's injured in that context is probably not a huge amount.

00:26:36.910 --> 00:26:43.990
If I continue down the rabbit hole of not loading it, I will lose capacity in all of the other healthy tissues.

00:26:44.049 --> 00:26:50.920
And so there's an Australian physio, Craig Purdum, who is well known for using the donut hole analogy.

00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:58.360
I think maybe in the nineties saying focus on the donut and not the hole, And so it's like there's more healthy stuff than injured stuff.

00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:01.360
And so you're probably okay to load.

00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:06.144
We need to maybe change the load to make sure you're loading a lot of healthy stuff.

00:27:06.505 --> 00:27:15.894
But in that context, it makes people's pain go away quicker than anything because the pain is not a reflection of the actual extent of the injury.

00:27:16.225 --> 00:27:19.644
The pain is a mix of all the things in someone's life.

00:27:20.365 --> 00:27:29.845
Maybe there's some physical pain, but there's like a bunch of psychological stress, there's a bunch of fear, there's a bunch of sleep loss, like everything gets thrown upside down.

00:27:30.174 --> 00:27:36.115
And so someone's pain is, because it's not reflective of the injury, it's almost always okay to keep loading'em.

00:27:36.115 --> 00:27:46.714
Even in the context of like rotator cuff tears, when people, I've had multiple clients with 50% rotator cuff tears and they will go, I'll send them to get a surgical opinion.

00:27:46.714 --> 00:27:48.995
And they always get sent back and they're like, keep doing rehab.

00:27:49.565 --> 00:27:55.985
And every single one of those athletes that I can think of off my head are back to loading full strength, doing their sports again.

00:27:55.985 --> 00:28:00.035
So it's like our body has this massive built-in buffer for.

00:28:00.605 --> 00:28:05.954
Being able to get these injuries, but still adapt to them and still get back to our sport.

00:28:06.015 --> 00:28:10.235
Obviously there's limits to that, but that's the exception, not the rule for most athletes.

00:28:10.735 --> 00:28:14.890
Tyler, I love that you brought the conversation right back to donuts.

00:28:15.390 --> 00:28:17.009
Oh, I always, for sure.

00:28:17.059 --> 00:28:18.589
that's my vibe for sure.

00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:19.100
Yes.

00:28:19.620 --> 00:28:26.880
if people have taken like courses, for me, I do a lot of teaching, and if there isn't like at least five pictures of D with donuts in them, they'll be upset.

00:28:27.380 --> 00:28:28.160
I love it.

00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:32.500
when you visit San Francisco, we'll have to go visit the, some of the best, donut shops.

00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:35.720
You have some, some donut aficionados, in the area

00:28:35.975 --> 00:28:37.720
Oh yes, we might be coming to San Francisco.

00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:40.480
I think we have a course, a youth course there that Collin's teaching.

00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:41.045
So if I.

00:28:41.394 --> 00:28:41.815
Okay.

00:28:42.315 --> 00:28:44.115
Yeah, we'd love to get some donuts and coffee.

00:28:45.365 --> 00:28:51.954
moving on a little bit, again, on the, subject of a specific, let's say trauma, that causes the injury.

00:28:51.954 --> 00:29:01.535
So you mentioned the rotator cuff stuff, and then it could be maybe somebody, tore the ACL, pretty specific trauma that might have happened.

00:29:01.865 --> 00:29:13.509
So wanted to juxtapose that against things such as arthritis, osteoarthritis, that, some of us start suffering from as we get older, just wear into et cetera.

00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:15.515
And I'm wondering, I.

00:29:15.714 --> 00:29:26.404
If your rehab protocol changes when it is something like arthritis that, is diagnosed for, one of your athletes.

00:29:26.904 --> 00:29:29.140
I think it, it depends on the person of course.

00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:39.464
'cause some people are gonna have more of a predisposition for that and making sure they don't have like more of the natural kind of inflammatory factor, which would be like the rheumatoid I.

00:29:39.625 --> 00:29:43.480
Versions of that, which can be, managed with medications in other ways.

00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:51.039
But from like a mechanical standpoint, there's not a lot of red flags per se for loading an arthritic joint.

00:29:51.069 --> 00:30:06.880
And in most cases, the science would say that strength training and loading at a high vol at a high intensity, low volume over long periods of time with slow increases should help like the cartilage as much as anything.

00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.309
So again, it's another one of those exercises.

00:30:09.309 --> 00:30:11.380
The best thing we have to a miracle cure.

00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:16.299
It's not a miracle cure, but it's like probably not risky necessarily.

00:30:16.305 --> 00:30:24.105
and this is really common in like climbers, fingers, like climbers have ugly hands because all their are all janky looking because they load.

00:30:24.674 --> 00:30:32.565
Now the amount of, I always think about I, every time I talk to someone that's been climbing a long time and they have a finger injury, I'm like, and they're like stressed out about, I'm like, I.

00:30:32.970 --> 00:30:38.519
Think about how much stress you've put on your fingers over 20 years and you've had one finger injury.

00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:44.615
I was like, that's bananas that they can much because they're small joints, But all matter has limitations.

00:30:44.615 --> 00:30:56.585
At some point they get some sort of repetitive positional thing that creates a irritation to the joint and the joint gets swollen and the bones get hypertrophied.

00:30:56.585 --> 00:31:04.985
The ligaments get hypertrophied, the knuckle actually gets arthritis and other joints get arthritis as a response to make them more stable.

00:31:05.485 --> 00:31:15.865
So like in the spine, if you took, a thousand people through an MRI scanner, most of that are like above 60 mo, almost all of them would have arthritic changes to their facet joints in their back.

00:31:16.365 --> 00:31:21.525
And that really is just like your body responding to mechanical stress to make it more protective.

00:31:22.184 --> 00:31:23.745
So I think on the whole like.

00:31:24.120 --> 00:31:25.289
Managing the pain.

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:29.130
I think managing the pain is different than managing the pathology.

00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:33.605
The pain is people with pathology or findings on an MRI with no pain.

00:31:33.605 --> 00:31:46.154
They're not patients, People that have pain complaints, even without MRI findings or with MRI findings, they are maybe patients, but they need not like a bunch of like passive soft tissue things.

00:31:46.154 --> 00:31:52.485
They just need like a more well-rounded per structured program for their life, more than like a single thing.

00:31:52.985 --> 00:31:54.194
Tell it was.

00:31:54.694 --> 00:32:00.309
Honestly, mind blowing for me as well because I am one of those, specimens with, very misshapen fingers.

00:32:00.670 --> 00:32:15.079
A lot of, synovitis on my fingers and the hang board, protocol, which is, hanging on your fingers, for certain length, for certain, which certain, repetitions over time that really helped me, get over my, finger pain.

00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:18.390
So I think for that particular, situation with finger range, absolutely.

00:32:18.390 --> 00:32:27.589
And I've given that, I've given the advice to, to many people, sometimes even unsolicited, because I would see somebody at the crack or at the gym, with like funky looking fingers.

00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:36.809
I'm like, Hey man, if you're feeling pain, you need to, get on that hang board of yours, a few times a week and, and, teach your fingers how to gradually accept stress.

00:32:37.230 --> 00:32:38.640
Is that also true?

00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:48.355
for other joints, again, the knees, ankles, shoulders, elbows, et cetera, where perhaps the arthritis is, let's say end stage.

00:32:48.404 --> 00:32:51.670
let's say there isn't cartilage left and, it's bone and bone.

00:32:52.180 --> 00:33:00.470
And in those cases, have you seen people, do well with the, the, the weight training, type of, rehab protocol?

00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.769
it depends.

00:33:01.769 --> 00:33:01.950
There.

00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:10.100
I definitely don't see as many of those, but I would predict that they definitely are not gonna respond to the same volume of like strength training and stuff.

00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:20.039
Like I don't, I would still like promote slow controlled strength training with modified ranges of motion for per the individual, right?

00:33:20.069 --> 00:33:29.880
Based on what they actually care about doing, which is another, which is why for rock climbers I'm always like, alright, cool, let's find a way to keep you loading your fingers to make you.

00:33:30.464 --> 00:33:33.704
Feel and know that you're still a rock climber because loading is okay.

00:33:34.005 --> 00:33:41.174
'cause if I give a bunch of exercises to someone that does not care about the exercises, the research shows, they don't really help people.

00:33:41.750 --> 00:33:52.390
generally, that's the problem with the rehab world, is people selling the idea that this thing is good for this pathology, but if the person doesn't give a damn about that, it's not a very good choice for that person.

00:33:52.390 --> 00:34:01.259
So I think those people need to be like, managed more tightly than most of my clients who are like pretty well equipped to navigate on their own.

00:34:01.265 --> 00:34:02.910
'cause they're not gonna have the same capacity.

00:34:03.329 --> 00:34:14.541
but the most of the orthopedic surgeons that I know, or people that work in like the prosthetics like, like replacement space would say you do not want to get those kinds of things unless you absolutely have to.

00:34:15.041 --> 00:34:23.141
So at some point, if you really are bone on bone in the knee, like getting a knee replacement isn't like an okay decision and a personal decision for people because.

00:34:23.675 --> 00:34:25.896
but some people will tough through it for a really long time.

00:34:25.896 --> 00:34:27.486
Like hips are the same way.

00:34:27.486 --> 00:34:34.996
Hips, most doctors will say, don't get a hip replacement until you can't hardly walk and the quality of your life is really suffering.

00:34:35.496 --> 00:34:35.736
Mm-Hmm.

00:34:35.796 --> 00:34:44.431
I think a lot of people get scared of pain and fearful of pain and that kind of drives not doing things because of the fear of pain.

00:34:44.431 --> 00:34:51.211
But like it's not until those end stages where it's really self-limiting that you need to be overly concerned about it.

00:34:51.271 --> 00:34:55.171
But most of the time that's again the exception, not the rule.

00:34:55.231 --> 00:34:58.411
But again, I don't work with people over 60 that much.

00:34:58.411 --> 00:35:01.861
Certainly that's the population that are getting end stage arthritic changes.

00:35:02.361 --> 00:35:02.931
Got it.

00:35:03.431 --> 00:35:11.451
Tyler, one thing I think myself and a lot of your other, followers or patients or what have you love about, about you is, you dog food, your own training.

00:35:11.661 --> 00:35:27.286
And by that what I mean is you are, you are talented and, and dedicated rock climber yourself, and you're always out there, experimenting on different types of, injury, injury prevention, injury, cures, and other kinds of, training methods.

00:35:27.335 --> 00:35:38.846
one thing I believe, you went through in your own life is, is I think you had some debilitating, injuries yourself and you managed to, rehab and, and get back to form.

00:35:39.306 --> 00:35:49.435
so maybe just, if you wanna just quickly share, what happened with you and, how did you prove the, the diagnosis, or rather the prognosis wrong and get

00:35:49.520 --> 00:35:49.810
Yeah.

00:35:49.945 --> 00:35:50.545
what you love.

00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:51.250
Yeah.

00:35:51.270 --> 00:35:56.206
My case is super interesting because like it's the equivalent of dogs that get hip dysplasia.

00:35:56.706 --> 00:35:58.565
Like humans can get dysplasia.

00:35:59.135 --> 00:36:12.306
And so most youth athletes will experience a risk in experiencing symptoms or making their symptoms worse or actually getting or injured when they go through their growth spurt.

00:36:12.806 --> 00:36:16.250
And so I played baseball my whole life.

00:36:16.250 --> 00:36:18.050
I wrestled my whole life and I played football.

00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:24.070
And like when I was a little kid in elementary school, I was super fast, like always the fastest.

00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:29.831
I could beat people in races, but then when I went into junior high school, I just couldn't run fast.

00:36:29.891 --> 00:36:30.610
It was weird.

00:36:31.240 --> 00:36:33.851
I remember just being like, why the, why can't I run fast anymore?

00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:36.670
But I didn't really have hip pain that I remember.

00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:36.730
I.

00:36:37.230 --> 00:36:45.840
But it was definitely like a change that happened to my hip that was being expressed in that maturity phase when my bones were starting to grow and fuse together.

00:36:46.290 --> 00:36:58.110
So essentially the hip, the left hip is like a, the hip is a ball and a socket joint, and people can visualize, like the ball is spherical and con cave and then the, or the, socket, I'm sorry.

00:36:58.110 --> 00:37:00.060
And then the ball is just like convex and round.

00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:05.556
And so they fit good together and there's ligaments around them and there's muscles and there's this range of motion, right?

00:37:05.556 --> 00:37:06.665
It has a pretty good range of motion.

00:37:07.115 --> 00:37:08.855
Mine is not built like that.

00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:17.260
Like my hip socket is bigger and flat my, my, my ball or my femoral head is square.

00:37:17.980 --> 00:37:21.850
So like my range of motion on my hip has never been good.

00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:23.765
Like I've known that since I was a little kid.

00:37:23.765 --> 00:37:29.920
Like I tell my wife, I could never sit cross-legged as a kid on the ground comfortably ever my whole life.

00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.260
And so like.

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:46.350
When I was in, so that was kinda like the story that maybe didn't get seen when I was a kid, And so then when I went to college after my bones were done maturing, like my hip and my back started to hurt all the time and it didn't really present like hip pain to present at like back pain.

00:37:46.951 --> 00:37:52.140
And so with that limited range of motion, like I just, there's nothing I can do about it.

00:37:52.140 --> 00:37:57.150
But I got some advice from people and I would go complain about it and I would get advice.

00:37:57.150 --> 00:38:06.900
And the advice was always the cliche, oh your back is tight because your hamstrings are tight or your back is tight because your core is weak and you need to strengthen stuff.

00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:19.940
And so it was the kind of run you down the typical, like essentially bullshit, biomechanical explanation for low back pain when no one really did a thorough sit me down and talk to me about what's going on.

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:20.000
I.

00:38:20.375 --> 00:38:29.065
Because I was super active, like I was climbing and out, back country skiing and going to concerts with my friends and painting as my job going to college.

00:38:29.425 --> 00:38:34.855
So my life through college was just like, I'm a good example of, I was just really tired all the time.

00:38:35.355 --> 00:38:39.105
And when you get really tired, like your body is like an ecosystem.

00:38:39.105 --> 00:38:43.005
And so when I get really tired, my hip is always the thing that hurts always.

00:38:43.005 --> 00:38:43.905
Still to this day.

00:38:44.405 --> 00:38:46.655
it presents like hip and back pain, right?

00:38:46.655 --> 00:38:48.425
But I can do a lot of stuff.

00:38:48.430 --> 00:38:51.395
I can climb, I can go back country skiing.

00:38:51.425 --> 00:38:56.195
I can lift weights with modifications, but there's other things that I can't do.

00:38:56.195 --> 00:38:59.076
I can't stand on flat ground for a long time.

00:38:59.076 --> 00:39:00.365
That always makes my hips sore.

00:39:00.875 --> 00:39:04.235
I don't like walking for long distances that'll make my hip sore.

00:39:04.715 --> 00:39:09.275
I can't do like really deep squatting or dead lifting that will predictably make my hip sore.

00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:13.625
So it's like there's these things that I think are important for.

00:39:14.125 --> 00:39:28.960
People to understand that you're, you do have some limitations to your mechanics and there's not a whole lot I can do about that, but the information that I got or the advice that I got was not personalized to me because it was just like, Hey, ha, they have this pain complaint.

00:39:28.965 --> 00:39:29.620
Here's what you do.

00:39:29.620 --> 00:39:34.990
And that's such a cliche, outplayed like waste of people's money.

00:39:35.020 --> 00:39:42.820
And it super pisses me off now when I hear people getting that from healthcare providers because all someone had to do is take an MRI right?

00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:46.180
And take more of a picture, take more of a look into it.

00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:47.500
And so I had an M MRI recently.

00:39:47.680 --> 00:39:49.750
Hip is jacked but it's not that hurt, right?

00:39:49.750 --> 00:39:56.951
Which is like the, I think I'm a really good example of if you looked at my pictures on an MRI, you'd be like, that person must be miserable.

00:39:56.955 --> 00:39:58.000
They must have a lot of pain.

00:39:58.300 --> 00:40:06.600
But my hip hardly hurts at all because I know how much I can tolerate and I can still enjoy the stuff that I love and not be miserable.

00:40:07.100 --> 00:40:17.230
Yeah, no, I think you've, really learned slash taught yourself, to listen to your body and be very specific with, what you subject your, your hips to.

00:40:17.290 --> 00:40:28.885
And, I think over time you have kinda fine tuned those activities that your hip can, can thrive in and reduce or, sometimes maybe eliminate others which clearly bother your hip.

00:40:28.890 --> 00:40:29.755
And I think there's a lesson.

00:40:30.115 --> 00:40:34.855
I think some of it, I think all of us as we get older, learn on our own.

00:40:34.925 --> 00:40:36.330
some of us are more self-aware.

00:40:36.330 --> 00:40:37.320
They do it faster.

00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:38.610
Some of us it takes more time.

00:40:38.615 --> 00:40:44.570
But it's, yeah, I think that's the key thing, which is one can still continue to do a lot of things.

00:40:44.570 --> 00:40:49.930
1, 1, 1, 1 flourishes in and minimize, minimize others.

00:40:50.430 --> 00:41:01.455
One thing that I always, find fascinating is, Some of the elite athletes in our sport, the ones who are out there, breaking records, doing first ascent, whatnot.

00:41:01.955 --> 00:41:15.005
What are some of those things that, again, these elite athletes are doing the best rock, climbers, surfers, runners, et cetera, that the rest of us are not doing for both?

00:41:15.055 --> 00:41:19.076
injury, observation, diagnosis, rehab.

00:41:19.385 --> 00:41:20.315
any comments there?

00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:26.520
So yeah, this one's like really tricky and I have your viewers won't see it, but I have this like paper sitting in front of me.

00:41:26.701 --> 00:41:41.940
Essentially it's like a, this one's a 2016 like International Olympic Committee consensus statement on load in sports and injury And so goes through and it talks about things that are considered internal loads and things that are considered external loads.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:46.490
So the internal loads are social stress, sleeping habits, diet.

00:41:46.910 --> 00:41:50.930
Other healthcare factors, other risk factors, family history, et cetera.

00:41:51.110 --> 00:41:57.951
And the external loading is like all the physical stress with our sport, the dosage, the intensity, the volume, the recovery, et cetera.

00:41:58.370 --> 00:42:02.120
And like it all matters for the athlete and their ability to adapt.

00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:02.721
To adapt.

00:42:03.070 --> 00:42:10.895
when we come down to the absolute significant difference between why professional athletes can tolerate more, it is genetic.

00:42:11.445 --> 00:42:17.326
that's not discrediting their work ethic or discrediting their skillset or discrediting what they do.

00:42:17.505 --> 00:42:23.320
But from my experience, most of the time in our space, the professional athletes, they give the worst advice.

00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:28.265
Because they don't understand really why it works for them or how they're good at what they do.

00:42:28.265 --> 00:42:29.130
They just do it.

00:42:29.130 --> 00:42:36.750
And the difference that these papers would validate is that those athletes literally can tolerate more physical stress than other people can.

00:42:36.750 --> 00:42:38.250
And that's a connective tissue thing.

00:42:38.790 --> 00:42:54.270
Maybe that got built a little bit more for that person, but what really differentiates the playing field with the most elite and the average athlete is for sure something that is, was out, outside of the control of the individual, which I think that's like very maybe un-American.

00:42:54.275 --> 00:42:56.280
And people are like, oh, that's not true.

00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.530
Like whatever you want.

00:42:57.890 --> 00:43:00.860
And I think that's cute and whatever, but I think that's naive as hell too.

00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:08.415
because ex examples like Michael Jordan and LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, those athletes have been killing it since they were kids.

00:43:08.415 --> 00:43:10.395
They didn't do shit different than someone else.

00:43:10.395 --> 00:43:12.795
They just were better, just like physically better.

00:43:13.125 --> 00:43:14.505
Same thing for the client space.

00:43:14.596 --> 00:43:17.855
Like the athletes that are training the hardest can do more they can't.

00:43:18.180 --> 00:43:25.585
And so I think it's really maybe important for everyone else to appreciate that because if you try and train like them, you're gonna get hurt.

00:43:25.585 --> 00:43:40.495
And that's the downside of that is I talk to all the people that work with pro athletes that don't give good suggestions, and they get hurt because that athlete doesn't really know, in their defense, they don't really know how much a normal person can tolerate, but their prescriptions tend to be over the top.

00:43:40.596 --> 00:43:45.245
a lot of times, and that's not to say all of them, but that's pretty common in all sports.

00:43:45.745 --> 00:43:52.955
No, I think that is, I think that is a hard truth that some of us are just born with, gifts that, the rest of us don't have.

00:43:53.455 --> 00:44:04.250
I remember many years ago hearing some comment by Dave Graham and Dave Graham was being asked about how he managed to, keep pushing the, the hard bouldering envelope for so long.

00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:13.985
And I think one of the things he said, which I thought was really, interesting, he said he's taught himself to, to stay on the verge of injury but not get injured.

00:44:14.675 --> 00:44:17.015
So I think it's probably a combination of just.

00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:17.750
Yeah.

00:44:17.795 --> 00:44:18.545
Most would not.

00:44:18.590 --> 00:44:31.980
in having the body capacity, the connective tissue, and maybe just some ESP where he's able to really understand what his body's going through and push until he cannot push anymore and then stop there and,

00:44:32.355 --> 00:44:37.905
I think maybe a really important thing too is everyone wants to like, and professional athletes work their ass off, right?

00:44:37.935 --> 00:44:43.605
But so does the weekend warrior, like I know so many athletes that care so much about climbing, they work their ass off too.

00:44:44.215 --> 00:44:49.705
and so what the pro athlete, just because they have more time, they're doing more, their effort matters more.

00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:50.635
That's not the case.

00:44:50.685 --> 00:44:58.365
There's a lot of people that put in a lot of good effort and try really hard and do all the right things, and they just don't, will not get the same response as the elite athlete.

00:44:58.680 --> 00:44:58.980
true.

00:44:59.565 --> 00:45:09.130
And that's just like a hard reality of our world, And so like I, I have maybe,'cause I'm 42 years old and I'm not a professional athlete and have a job like that doesn't hurt my feelings really.

00:45:09.130 --> 00:45:13.560
But for young kids, maybe I that would be like a kind of a stamp down on your thunder, right?

00:45:13.560 --> 00:45:17.190
And that doesn't mean that you don't want to keep pursuing your dreams and your goals, whatever.

00:45:17.190 --> 00:45:23.471
It's but being realistic about it, I think is also, a very, helpful thing for just the average person.

00:45:23.971 --> 00:45:29.340
Tyler, what are some of those most common things you see that concern you?

00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:33.576
where you feel, these are things that athletes should not be doing.

00:45:33.995 --> 00:45:41.065
You just keep seeing the same things over and over again and, maybe some things that you feel they should actually start doing.

00:45:41.635 --> 00:45:45.205
And they seem resistance to, to change.

00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.190
Ooh, the climbing world's super resistant to change.

00:45:48.190 --> 00:45:52.721
I don't know if there's like things that I would say are for sure hard they should stop doing.

00:45:53.260 --> 00:45:58.210
'cause we don't have that much evidence to support anything in rock climbing really.

00:45:58.490 --> 00:46:04.390
there's very low, low quality research and quantity of research and that will change over time.

00:46:04.390 --> 00:46:04.960
Of course.

00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:12.860
I would say maybe the most risky behaviors are really just climbing volume, just like doing too much too often.

00:46:13.370 --> 00:46:15.110
That will certainly stale progress.

00:46:15.110 --> 00:46:17.270
That will certainly increase injury risk.

00:46:17.390 --> 00:46:20.300
But that's not a single thing, but that's a mix of all the things.

00:46:20.390 --> 00:46:34.820
I would say probably the most useless thing that climbers do is a lot of calisthenic types of exercise stuff like body weight, stuff like just naturally climbers are strong, like their upper bodies are They do a lot of stuff.

00:46:35.451 --> 00:46:37.400
They're naturally good at other things.

00:46:37.430 --> 00:46:42.530
And so the one of the rabbit holes that we get ourselves into that other sports did too.

00:46:42.530 --> 00:46:44.480
But now they have the research to say, don't do that.

00:46:44.540 --> 00:46:58.270
But climbers don't have that is they try and replicate movements or positions or things that look like rock climbing things and they do them off the wall like the ability to adapt and get something from that.

00:46:58.390 --> 00:47:00.490
We can say that's pretty much a waste of your time.

00:47:00.590 --> 00:47:03.495
that's not strength training, that's not your sport.

00:47:03.795 --> 00:47:05.535
That's not end range stretching.

00:47:05.805 --> 00:47:11.660
That's just a skills acquisition for something that you hope transfers to your sport.

00:47:11.660 --> 00:47:18.590
But there's very little guarantee that the coordination of something that's not your sport will actually transfer to your sport.

00:47:19.160 --> 00:47:19.430
Right?

00:47:19.430 --> 00:47:27.290
And so when it comes to strength training, the recruitment, the tendon stiffness changes, those are the things that we can say pretty confidently.

00:47:27.295 --> 00:47:30.410
Those should transfer to our sport, but we still have to practice our sport.

00:47:30.830 --> 00:47:32.090
But there's a lot of the.

00:47:32.495 --> 00:47:45.965
Crossover between gymnastics is beautiful and strong, and rock climbing is beautiful and strong and we love each other, so we like, but climbers do all the gymnastics shit, but the gymnastics athletes are not rock climbing for their training.

00:47:45.971 --> 00:47:51.346
So we're we're obsessed with trying to be like this other sport that is maybe stronger than us.

00:47:51.346 --> 00:47:51.735
I don't know.

00:47:51.735 --> 00:47:54.495
it's a very weird space, but climbers like that kind of stuff.

00:47:54.995 --> 00:48:09.420
As, as climbing enters the mainstream Olympics now, and, and you find even, even, federal governments are starting to actually recognize the importance of climbing to maybe, as a, as something that, a lot of people engage in and starting to put money into it.

00:48:09.730 --> 00:48:14.420
you of course, are, leading a lot of the, research in training, and I think there are others as well.

00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:31.155
What are some of the things out there that are going on with, with, training and again, injury detection, rehab, et cetera, that are being done with elite athletes that, the ordinary person out there can at least, Get insights on or learn from or take advantage of.

00:48:31.655 --> 00:48:39.826
I don't know that I don't know, with the exception of like maybe the German team, I'm sure Alex Mes and Adam Andra, I'm sure they have a team of I.

00:48:39.915 --> 00:48:42.735
Specialists, like watching them closely?

00:48:42.785 --> 00:48:46.550
I'm not sure that someone does that regularly in the states that I'm aware of.

00:48:46.550 --> 00:48:52.790
Like I'm maybe some, I know there's one doc that's a medical doctor that's doing like some cardiovascular stuff.

00:48:52.820 --> 00:48:59.336
And in terms of the research, like I don't work at a university anymore, so I don't do much peer reviewed research.

00:48:59.366 --> 00:49:06.376
Like for my job now it's mostly just like applying sports science ideas to climbing and better understanding it.

00:49:06.376 --> 00:49:11.576
And so hopefully and like when I was in graduate school, like doing research is interesting, but it's boring.

00:49:11.576 --> 00:49:13.736
That's not really what turns my gears.

00:49:13.736 --> 00:49:24.431
Like I, I love research and appreciate researchers, but my brain is too, not scattered, but it likes to move on and do new things other than this is the one thing we're gonna do for the next three years.

00:49:24.931 --> 00:49:29.011
So I want like hopefully younger kids coming up and getting like their.

00:49:29.567 --> 00:49:31.966
Master's degree in exercise science, they care about climbing.

00:49:31.996 --> 00:49:35.016
They're the ones that are gonna keep pushing like the good research moving forward.

00:49:35.496 --> 00:49:48.606
But I don't know that there's from my perspective, I would say being able to measure force, and this is something that I'm known for, is like measuring force and measuring velocity are methods to detect fatigue.

00:49:49.156 --> 00:49:52.396
using a fingerboard is like a little bit harder to detect fatigue.

00:49:53.056 --> 00:49:56.896
And that's kinda like the recent two and a half hour podcast I did with Steve.

00:49:56.956 --> 00:50:04.946
But those kinds of things seem like groundbreaking, like life shattering kinds of things for climbers.

00:50:04.946 --> 00:50:06.266
But that's not that complicated.

00:50:06.271 --> 00:50:11.276
Nor is it that like sophisticated by any means, like other sports have been doing that for decades.

00:50:11.306 --> 00:50:21.993
And so being able to understand the amount of fatigue you carry from session to session is probably the most helpful thing that the average athlete can do for themselves.

00:50:22.728 --> 00:50:30.403
And so essentially what that means, and it doesn't need to be sophisticated, like the strain gauges, like the Eck Progressor that I use and promote is inexpensive.

00:50:30.403 --> 00:50:31.663
It's$150.

00:50:32.233 --> 00:50:35.953
The vi true encoder, the LPT, which it measures velocity.

00:50:35.953 --> 00:50:36.973
That's a little more expensive.

00:50:36.973 --> 00:50:44.863
Those are like$400, But using tools like that allows the athlete to make sure that they're prepared or rested for their training session.

00:50:45.363 --> 00:50:52.993
And the training session is going to be useful and, I guess useful in the context is they're gonna recover from it.

00:50:52.993 --> 00:50:57.853
And so they're gonna get an adaptive benefit from it if they do it when they're not tired.

00:50:58.333 --> 00:51:03.793
Like most people are just like doing too much stuff and their sessions are just sub subpar quality.

00:51:03.793 --> 00:51:11.043
The quality's just not that high because we try and apply the same frequency of loading to climbing as we would other

00:51:11.134 --> 00:51:11.423
Yeah.

00:51:11.558 --> 00:51:16.268
if you think about the size of the fingers and the size of the knee, you can't climb as much as you can play soccer.

00:51:16.298 --> 00:51:20.403
You just can't, the fingers will limit how actual volume you can do.

00:51:21.033 --> 00:51:39.173
And so one of the things that I do quite a bit of is teach, like at the CWA or teach, like I was at the Canadian Climbing Symposium this fall, talking about like finger training things and how we can maybe think about them differently to make us less injured from them, but gain an adaptation.

00:51:39.384 --> 00:51:43.783
But then also youth climbing injury risk is something I do a good amount of teaching with.

00:51:43.783 --> 00:51:51.613
And I'm not sure if I'm fully answered your question, but I, there's not really that much sophisticated stuff going on in the climbing world that I'm aware of.

00:51:52.113 --> 00:51:53.288
You, you.

00:51:53.788 --> 00:51:54.418
you did.

00:51:54.448 --> 00:52:07.023
And, in fact, you, partially helped point us towards my next question, which is, related to, quantified health for, for climbers and yeah, for, our kinds of, outdoor athletes.

00:52:07.603 --> 00:52:12.438
we have seen improvements in Quantified Health used by the everyday, athlete out there.

00:52:12.868 --> 00:52:14.608
people are using different devices.

00:52:14.613 --> 00:52:20.078
People are, studying data, people are monitoring, energy output sleep.

00:52:20.558 --> 00:52:24.308
People are recording those things in, in Strava and what have you.

00:52:24.668 --> 00:52:29.038
What is the state of, quantified health for climbers?

00:52:29.698 --> 00:52:36.153
Because, for example, and I see people logging in their, climbing activity in Strava, but to me it doesn't really, I.

00:52:36.603 --> 00:52:47.853
Mean that much because they're manually entering that data instead of having, Strava or another device, record important, data points about their, climbing session and their climbing performance over time.

00:52:47.908 --> 00:52:56.683
yeah, I would, would be curious in what your, what you take is on, advancements in quantified health, that are taking advantage of already or should be taking advantage of.

00:52:57.183 --> 00:53:06.773
I don't know that there's much that people are taking advantage of that's really precise and that accurate in terms of, or that as a measure for what they're getting outta their training sessions.

00:53:06.823 --> 00:53:16.183
with the exception of athletes that are like using, let's say for finger training, they're using some sort of measurement device to calculate their loads all the time.

00:53:16.693 --> 00:53:22.183
And so one thing that I'll use for my training is I'll use the power meter to measure my.

00:53:22.828 --> 00:53:26.548
And quantify my strength training stuff, my non climbing strength training stuff.

00:53:26.608 --> 00:53:29.578
And that gives me a pretty good range of adaptation over time.

00:53:30.078 --> 00:53:41.978
But I would say there's nothing really that's that powerful and or like useful maybe the sleeping habits stuff, but those, like wearing an Apple watch is not that precise of your sleep habits.

00:53:41.978 --> 00:53:47.478
something like the whoops, Strapp would be better, But like it's really hard to predict human performance, just period.

00:53:47.938 --> 00:53:52.798
there's fancy tools and a lot of times the fancy tool becomes the focus of the thing.

00:53:52.798 --> 00:53:53.458
I usually tell'em.

00:53:53.578 --> 00:54:02.958
We did a podcast, maybe a couple months ago with my coaches and one of the questions that was asked was like, how do I know my training program was effective?

00:54:03.259 --> 00:54:06.498
And the next time I do a training program, how do I know what to change?

00:54:07.218 --> 00:54:08.868
And that's like a multifactorial thing.

00:54:08.868 --> 00:54:11.598
But my response was like, did you get hurt?

00:54:12.098 --> 00:54:15.218
Like how, what was the consequence of your training program?

00:54:15.268 --> 00:54:25.408
did you have a season that wa, that LA that lasted the amount of time you expected it to and was your average performance high quality?

00:54:25.438 --> 00:54:27.688
did you try hard, did you get hurt?

00:54:28.048 --> 00:54:29.218
How was your sleep habits?

00:54:29.218 --> 00:54:32.873
what was your overall wellbeing during that period of time?

00:54:33.373 --> 00:54:39.073
And most people that, like I got hurt at the end of my training program, it's like you probably pushed too far.

00:54:39.103 --> 00:54:40.453
Doesn't mean your training program was bad.

00:54:40.453 --> 00:54:41.473
You maybe pushed it too long.

00:54:41.803 --> 00:54:45.943
People that got hurt in the middle of their training program, your training program was too much volume.

00:54:46.033 --> 00:54:50.543
Like you can't do that the next, So I think we can also use, humans are not dumb.

00:54:50.813 --> 00:54:56.933
Like athletes are not intentionally doing shit to hurt themselves, but they know when they're overdoing it.

00:54:56.993 --> 00:55:04.463
But if we don't educate people that it's okay to not do the plan as it's prescribed or go off the plan.

00:55:04.773 --> 00:55:11.134
that's a mistake on the coach's part because I don't know how my athletes are gonna adapt to every training session.

00:55:11.193 --> 00:55:12.813
Why the hell would I, that doesn't make any sense.

00:55:12.843 --> 00:55:13.863
They don't know either.

00:55:14.134 --> 00:55:19.083
So they have to know that your sessions are not the same quality.

00:55:19.113 --> 00:55:21.693
Your sessions are not the same volume.

00:55:22.233 --> 00:55:28.568
You have to teach the athlete and the athlete's gotta learn to get a better sense of what they can adapt to.

00:55:28.868 --> 00:55:31.208
And that changes over time too.

00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:32.099
Got it.

00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:43.754
The athlete listening to themselves and then their, their coach also providing, yeah, that prompt feedback on adaptations that they need to be making.

00:55:44.254 --> 00:55:48.454
many years ago, I remember, a well known climbing trainer, Justin Shank.

00:55:48.934 --> 00:55:52.924
He would be out at the crack wearing a hot rate monitor.

00:55:53.424 --> 00:56:11.164
the way he would instruct people to use that thing was that they should listen to the HRM to tell them, Hey, if you are rest on a long, long climb, it'll tell you when you should begin climbing again because your heart has now, slowed down to a certain level.

00:56:11.434 --> 00:56:16.594
Do you see people benefiting from HRMS in their training or, actually while they're performing as well?

00:56:17.094 --> 00:56:24.994
I've like at the, I don't know that many people do that, like I think maybe the most rare cases that happens, like I have certainly.

00:56:25.659 --> 00:56:36.164
Heart rate monitors and like what are called SO two monitors, so I can put heart rate monitor on someone's chest and then also a, oxygen utilization monitor on their forearms.

00:56:36.664 --> 00:56:49.379
And you can, but the problem with that is and it's really interesting because when it comes to like finger boarding, you'll see like a drop in oxygen use when they are doing work, and then you'll see it come back when they're recovering.

00:56:49.649 --> 00:56:55.230
And they'll do that throughout the repetitions, even when their muscles are not recovering.

00:56:55.230 --> 00:57:00.324
They can still do repetitions because the types of muscle contractions used with a fingerboard.

00:57:00.689 --> 00:57:04.259
So it's pretty, pretty damn insightful.

00:57:04.259 --> 00:57:12.824
But those things are$2,000, like climbers are not investing that much money in that kind of equipment.

00:57:13.464 --> 00:57:22.394
and it's even like hard to sell to the larger Community because like I've tried to do this multiple times with our team and say, Hey, I'll do this for free.

00:57:22.424 --> 00:57:24.164
I live here, send my way.

00:57:24.164 --> 00:57:24.824
I'll do it for free.

00:57:24.824 --> 00:57:26.924
And there was interest, but there was like little follow through.

00:57:26.924 --> 00:57:36.904
So it's like the team's not big enough almost to be able to have enough eyes exploring all the avenues that we could that would really help our athletes.

00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:42.439
there is that we could use in that context, which for sure, but they're not being used, which is a bummer.

00:57:42.939 --> 00:57:43.239
Great.

00:57:43.294 --> 00:57:56.494
we are moving, to the end of our session, but, before we do that, just one last thing on this topic, which is, when you look at the, the future of screening, the future of rehab, what is it that you find most exciting?

00:57:56.494 --> 00:58:04.544
do you see, AI coming in and, giving us some valuable, tools, something else that, you really, keen to, see, develop?

00:58:05.044 --> 00:58:22.994
I think the like AI example would be an AI could give you like a generalized, crappy training program that's very generic, but the AI can't really understand and care for the person enough to educate them on an emotional level that's gonna be meaningful.

00:58:23.494 --> 00:58:25.889
sure, make me a finger training program, whatever.

00:58:25.949 --> 00:58:27.029
It might work great.

00:58:27.209 --> 00:58:29.219
Might be too much volume, but easy to adjust.

00:58:29.549 --> 00:58:39.669
But they can't really sit and understand the person's emotional response and how stressed they're about a pain complaint and how that stress is influencing their training and how they need to adjust that.

00:58:39.674 --> 00:58:47.459
So I think in terms of being really precise, I think I've always been a fan of letting the principles of sports science guide.

00:58:47.959 --> 00:58:49.939
The kind of direction that we take.

00:58:49.969 --> 00:58:52.759
But the art of coaching is like not that simple.

00:58:52.759 --> 00:59:02.799
The art of coaching is really what makes coaches and healthcare providers exceptional because they have to connect with people and they have to think on their feet, and they have to not freak out when the client is freaked out.

00:59:02.804 --> 00:59:08.355
And there's all these other factors that I think AI is not gonna be able to do very well, at least anytime soon.

00:59:08.714 --> 00:59:10.154
But I don't know that much about that world.

00:59:10.154 --> 00:59:10.664
Maybe they do.

00:59:10.714 --> 00:59:11.375
Sure.

00:59:11.564 --> 00:59:12.254
yeah, I'm curious.

00:59:12.254 --> 00:59:27.730
one thing that you know, again, climber is being a little bit more hippie than other sports maybe we are not so good at, which is keeping, detailed records data about training and performance, which maybe today does not provide sufficient.

00:59:27.809 --> 00:59:33.589
reserves for l lns, large language models to drop on, but I'm curious if that changes.

00:59:33.649 --> 00:59:42.669
we are able to, I'm, I'm positive this is already happening in other sports and I'm, I am positive that maybe give it five years, 10 years more money comes into the sport.

00:59:42.969 --> 01:00:02.894
People will start recording their data and, in that spectrum between coaching and training, being an art and the science, we'll probably see some shifts happening towards the science spectrum and maybe even people, experts such as yourself, starting to maybe leverage a bit more, AI in, helping maybe fine tune or inform training.

01:00:03.394 --> 01:00:03.684
Yeah.

01:00:03.689 --> 01:00:04.959
Yeah, that'd be interesting for sure.

01:00:04.959 --> 01:00:06.009
I'm assuming that will happen,

01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:06.389
great.

01:00:06.419 --> 01:00:07.559
one thing I just, yeah.

01:00:07.619 --> 01:00:10.349
One or two last questions before we, before we wrap up.

01:00:11.069 --> 01:00:17.129
Any, any favorite, climbing training book that you, you love?

01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:19.154
or maybe another kind of, training research?

01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:25.234
I know that when I started climbing, we had, just a few books out there, performance Rock climbing, and then I think Eric Horse and a couple of books.

01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:27.834
But now there's so many other, books people are putting out.

01:00:28.174 --> 01:00:32.444
wondering, which is one, which is your favorite climbing training book?

01:00:33.134 --> 01:00:40.064
And then I also like to read, and then secondly, just for fun, what's maybe, a great climbing movie that you watched, you would recommend?

01:00:40.614 --> 01:00:46.164
So I can probably say the only, probably I don't read books very often.

01:00:46.214 --> 01:00:49.784
like the downside of books is they're outdated too fast.

01:00:49.814 --> 01:00:50.864
like things change.

01:00:50.864 --> 01:00:59.625
And I think a lot of the, with the exception probably of Eric Horse book or Steve Bechtel's book, like those have some quantified, oh, I guess the old rock.

01:01:00.014 --> 01:01:02.625
Climbing trainers manual has some science stuff too.

01:01:02.674 --> 01:01:10.934
it's but those things are like, they're, things change so fast, And so I think, I've probably never completed a full rock climbing book, looked at pieces.

01:01:10.934 --> 01:01:14.474
I think probably Steve Bechtel's book is probably one I've read the most.

01:01:14.714 --> 01:01:15.855
and I forget which one.

01:01:15.855 --> 01:01:17.744
I have a couple of his that I think are good.

01:01:17.794 --> 01:01:25.254
metal I think is a good one, but that's not as much like a training book as it is, like a kind of informative, skills discussion kind of thing.

01:01:25.304 --> 01:01:27.944
so I read research papers more than anything else.

01:01:27.949 --> 01:01:32.924
And if I am not like reading research papers, like I'm not reading climbing shit.

01:01:33.134 --> 01:01:43.214
Like I don't, I actually don't watch like climbing competitions with few exceptions or professional athletes climbing or YouTube videos of athletes.

01:01:43.214 --> 01:01:47.739
Like it's, I think like it's been good in some sense to like, make.

01:01:48.084 --> 01:01:56.904
My ex exploration of the science and modifications seem organic for me based on what I like, read and learn and explore, so I don't do a ton of that.

01:01:56.964 --> 01:02:00.004
additionally, for climbing movies, geez.

01:02:00.554 --> 01:02:04.924
I, I do the just the, real rock movies, just like the people pushing it.

01:02:04.924 --> 01:02:05.884
I like that kind of stuff.

01:02:05.884 --> 01:02:06.454
That's awesome.

01:02:06.454 --> 01:02:08.194
I love the, I love big wall climbing.

01:02:08.194 --> 01:02:15.334
to me the purest, most interesting, exciting thing about climbing is big wall climbing, or, all style climbing.

01:02:15.334 --> 01:02:17.434
I don't like sport climbing that much.

01:02:17.824 --> 01:02:18.634
For some reason.

01:02:18.634 --> 01:02:22.764
I like bouldering because it's pretty hard and it's sort natural and you can do it right.

01:02:22.764 --> 01:02:28.404
I don't love sport climbing for whatever reason, but I love the, big wall adventure kinds of films for sure.

01:02:28.404 --> 01:02:30.084
I love that movie, the Alpinist.

01:02:30.144 --> 01:02:34.224
That's probably the one that I've seen the most recent, that's the most badass and awesome.

01:02:34.584 --> 01:02:36.804
I hope you got to see it on the big screen.

01:02:36.804 --> 01:02:37.644
I know I did.

01:02:37.674 --> 01:02:45.904
And, even with some idea of what I was going to expect, those opening scenes with Mark, uh, cleric, yeah.

01:02:45.904 --> 01:02:48.934
Just free solo, onsite ice climbing.

01:02:48.939 --> 01:02:50.589
what an amazing aspect like that.

01:02:51.139 --> 01:02:52.259
that's so incredible.

01:02:52.289 --> 01:02:57.654
I really is like a feed of athleticism that like, is far beyond anything I will ever do.

01:02:57.834 --> 01:02:58.914
It's amazing, right?

01:02:59.514 --> 01:03:00.444
'cause I've done some

01:03:00.564 --> 01:03:06.834
even, maybe, even, beyond athleticism of a feat of, human endeavor.

01:03:06.834 --> 01:03:08.514
it's just, I think it's beyond athletics.

01:03:08.514 --> 01:03:11.704
It's like a human being capable of, that kind of performance.

01:03:11.704 --> 01:03:12.544
It's, it's unreal.

01:03:13.044 --> 01:03:13.224
Yeah.

01:03:13.224 --> 01:03:16.105
It's as close as you're gonna get to a superhero status, right?

01:03:16.105 --> 01:03:16.914
As a human.

01:03:16.974 --> 01:03:18.489
I think people don't do that shit.

01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:19.059
You don't just like.

01:03:19.644 --> 01:03:22.734
Walk up to a ice cliff and climb it with no rope.

01:03:22.784 --> 01:03:24.494
that's just not something that humans do.

01:03:24.494 --> 01:03:26.924
Like honnold, solos are incredible.

01:03:26.954 --> 01:03:32.054
and those are amazing to watch, but he's very rehearsed and like does it more strategic and plan, right?

01:03:32.105 --> 01:03:35.674
that thing was like not, he, I think he did it solo, right?

01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:36.934
And then he went back to film it.

01:03:36.934 --> 01:03:40.924
But like the ice too, it's not as consistent the conditions, right?

01:03:40.924 --> 01:03:45.424
So the kind of takes the scare factor and cranks it up a little bit too, So

01:03:45.924 --> 01:03:46.164
absolutely.

01:03:46.164 --> 01:03:56.094
And you, not taking nothing away from Harold, but Yosemite granite is maybe a little bit, less brutal than, than, British Columbia Ice.

01:03:56.594 --> 01:03:56.734
yeah.

01:03:56.739 --> 01:04:00.094
And those routes are like so well rehearsed and he knows'em so good.

01:04:00.094 --> 01:04:04.264
Like he's an the other level of amazing athlete for sure, no doubt.

01:04:04.294 --> 01:04:09.074
Like unmatched, but it's So a little bit, just a little bit more edgy, a little bit more metal.

01:04:09.314 --> 01:04:13.414
The Alpine Ascent, that was, that movie was got me gripped for sure.

01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:14.359
Yeah.

01:04:14.359 --> 01:04:20.149
Next level, inspiration where I have no guilt on sitting on my couch and eating popcorn while I watch that.

01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:20.949
climbing action.

01:04:21.449 --> 01:04:33.694
Tyler, I think most of us, you're pretty well known on the interwebs, but those of us who don't know, where to find you, could you point us to how people can find more info on, what services you provide to athletes?

01:04:34.174 --> 01:04:46.054
And then also one, one thing I think you do is also quite valuable if you still do it, which is, I think you were hosting in-person training workshops or, measurement workshops at some point.

01:04:46.059 --> 01:04:52.629
If you have any of those coming up that people can find out and sign up early, because I think those sell out pretty quickly.

01:04:53.334 --> 01:04:53.484
Yeah.

01:04:53.484 --> 01:04:54.259
Those things are fun.

01:04:54.384 --> 01:04:55.855
I haven't done as many of those.

01:04:55.855 --> 01:04:58.074
I did a lot last year, like I did every month.

01:04:58.074 --> 01:04:59.184
I traveled to teach.

01:04:59.714 --> 01:05:01.094
it was like a lot of load.

01:05:01.099 --> 01:05:04.154
I have four kids, so it's I like to be home from my family.

01:05:04.154 --> 01:05:05.684
So I did a lot of that last year.

01:05:05.684 --> 01:05:07.574
I probably am not gonna do much of that this year.

01:05:08.044 --> 01:05:12.514
certainly do lots of online teaching and I have online courses too that people would just buy on the website.

01:05:12.994 --> 01:05:22.024
we do have a youth like certification course, so maybe people that own gyms and want to train their youth climbing coaches about strength conditioning principles.

01:05:22.024 --> 01:05:30.404
We have a course that we teach two days there that we're, that we are promoting and getting traction for and accepting, interest in.

01:05:30.404 --> 01:05:35.144
And I think we have four scheduled this year, but, we'll, we can fill that up where I maybe will teach some of those.

01:05:35.149 --> 01:05:36.494
Colin usually teaches those.

01:05:37.014 --> 01:05:52.284
and then people can find me on Instagram as like something I'm, I use enough, but I'm starting to get away from, I've used it for a long time and I'm over that platform in some ways, but I will still be there and I answer messages, whatever, but there's all my information for YouTube and.

01:05:52.689 --> 01:05:56.049
Patreon account and website on Instagram as well.

01:05:56.109 --> 01:06:00.359
So I don't use Facebook or Twitter or other, platforms.

01:06:00.359 --> 01:06:02.519
Mostly just Instagram and YouTube and Patreon.

01:06:03.019 --> 01:06:03.414
Got it.

01:06:03.414 --> 01:06:05.064
Instagram and, and YouTube.

01:06:05.069 --> 01:06:08.784
And then I think if people want to book private, on your website, right?

01:06:09.234 --> 01:06:09.594
Yeah.

01:06:09.744 --> 01:06:11.549
we'll make sure to, post those links.

01:06:12.029 --> 01:06:13.349
on topic of, of camps.

01:06:13.349 --> 01:06:18.289
Actually, I found this always a little bit, annoying that when you are a, you go to the climbing gym, right?

01:06:18.289 --> 01:06:24.589
you're a youth athlete, you're a kid, and there are these, daily regular, like whatever training program set up.

01:06:25.339 --> 01:06:30.939
On the other end, if you're an elite athlete, again, you have the ability to ha go into immersive coaching programs.

01:06:31.209 --> 01:06:37.784
But let's say you're just a, middle of the road, but, but obsessive, average athlete, you often have to be self coached.

01:06:38.054 --> 01:06:55.250
So I'm always interested in hearing about, training workshops, immersion ones that people are doing where they can, people such as myself, can just go, go to some place in Salt Lake for a month and just be trained with, with good coaches and also have the, camaraderie that's another topic to look into.

01:06:55.299 --> 01:06:58.719
and I hope somebody out there is, thinking of doing those kinds of camps for, for the

01:06:58.834 --> 01:07:00.864
sure, I'm pretty sure people do that stuff for sure.

01:07:00.864 --> 01:07:07.254
Like I know it happens at like the USA like coaches training camp and the, at the setting level they do.

01:07:07.254 --> 01:07:18.694
But something that's crazy interesting is like in the climbing world that we're trying to maybe nudge a little bit more is to be a youth climbing coach, you don't need any sort of credentials other than a little bit of.

01:07:19.339 --> 01:07:24.619
Street cred from the gym and people like you, and you had a good, you're a good climber.

01:07:24.619 --> 01:07:27.339
Like those are the requisite things that you need.

01:07:27.339 --> 01:07:29.855
But in other sports, that's not enough.

01:07:29.884 --> 01:07:40.974
Like you can't do that if you're a high school soccer coach or high school football coach, like there's no way in hell you're getting that job unless you have something to support that you know what you're doing.

01:07:40.974 --> 01:07:51.744
And not to say that they don't know what they're doing from a climbing standpoint, but prescribing things and making good decisions, and helping the individual on a physical level as best they can, requires more nuance.

01:07:51.750 --> 01:07:52.884
It requires more education.

01:07:52.884 --> 01:08:05.134
So that's the impetus for that course is to try and help equip youth coaches have a bit more understanding of sports science as it applies to training a rock climber, a youth climber.

01:08:05.634 --> 01:08:15.444
That is absolutely the way forward though, I would say as, as an old school climber, I sometimes have mixed feelings about a sport getting a little bit, formal and commercial.

01:08:15.449 --> 01:08:19.460
But no, I think that is, the right, that is the right place for climbing to be, evolving into,

01:08:19.460 --> 01:08:21.859
the problem is like most of those kids aren't gonna grow up.

01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:26.300
Like my kids grow up and they go out with me to the desert and we go like scramble and climb and do stuff.

01:08:26.359 --> 01:08:27.500
a lot of those kids don't do that.

01:08:27.529 --> 01:08:30.970
They grew up in a gym climbing, and they just see what the big kids are doing.

01:08:30.975 --> 01:08:36.270
They do what the big kids are doing, whether that's a good idea or not, most times probably not, but they can still do things.

01:08:36.274 --> 01:08:38.760
So it's it's a hard like space to navigate.

01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:48.194
But, so that's that's something that I think needs to happen for the sport to evolve and for athletes to, be able to progress in a healthy way That's gonna be.

01:08:48.885 --> 01:09:01.890
Long term sustainable for them and it's kinda like a necessary thing that's gonna be slow to adapt and equip ourselves with, we like approach the USA climbing too about that and say, Hey, you guys weren't interested in this.

01:09:01.890 --> 01:09:03.090
We'd like your sport, whatever.

01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:06.359
And it's again kinda like a falls on deaf ears kind of things.

01:09:06.359 --> 01:09:07.500
yeah, sure, send us your stuff.

01:09:07.500 --> 01:09:07.770
We'll see.

01:09:07.770 --> 01:09:08.704
It's no, we're not gonna do that.

01:09:08.704 --> 01:09:13.474
We're gonna go in the other way where we're just gonna go because I like teaching and so does Colin.

01:09:13.474 --> 01:09:22.804
We're just gonna go educate all the coaches around the country and then be like, oh wait, we should probably support this thing then because it like is what the coaches really want kind of thing.

01:09:22.809 --> 01:09:24.224
So it's but another topic.

01:09:24.229 --> 01:09:25.334
But yeah, I think that needs to happen.

01:09:25.834 --> 01:09:28.294
Tara, I, you have so much, you're such a fountain of knowledge.

01:09:28.324 --> 01:09:31.534
I could talk to you all afternoon, but I know that you have things to do.

01:09:31.534 --> 01:09:33.034
So I will, let you go.

01:09:33.494 --> 01:09:35.639
I think you should still be daylight in, in Utah.

01:09:35.639 --> 01:09:38.909
Hope you get to enjoy some outdoor time with your family.

01:09:39.089 --> 01:09:40.799
Thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:09:41.504 --> 01:09:42.224
Yeah, you're welcome.

01:09:42.229 --> 01:09:42.914
Thanks for having me.

01:09:43.187 --> 01:09:43.727
Thank you.

01:09:43.997 --> 01:09:44.507
Take care.

01:09:48.240 --> 01:09:48.960
Amazing.

01:09:49.590 --> 01:09:51.360
Dollar really knows this stuff.

01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:53.100
Great.

01:09:53.370 --> 01:09:55.530
Advice on learning to listen to one's body.

01:09:56.610 --> 01:10:02.520
And cool story on how Tyler was able to treat his own career ending hip dysplasia.

01:10:03.210 --> 01:10:04.140
And returned to form.

01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:09.900
Contrarian advice as well, where one can and should listen.

01:10:11.490 --> 01:10:14.400
And practice our own sports even while injured.

01:10:14.670 --> 01:10:16.170
But in a careful way.

01:10:17.340 --> 01:10:24.180
And also funny how calisthenics and I would add even a much loved yoga.

01:10:24.780 --> 01:10:26.280
Is not really.

01:10:26.730 --> 01:10:28.890
The best training for climbing.

01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:37.800
It has helped me just become more able and confident, but the skills acquisition and time spent.

01:10:38.310 --> 01:10:44.160
Would be better applied to climbing if that was my only goal, but I do like do yoga.

01:10:44.190 --> 01:10:44.640
So.

01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:46.110
It's been fun.

01:10:47.310 --> 01:10:48.270
As we get older.

01:10:48.870 --> 01:10:52.680
We lose muscle at an accelerated rate.

01:10:52.890 --> 01:10:57.870
So hence it's important to not give in and continue training with heavyweights.

01:10:58.470 --> 01:11:00.690
This advice, which has now well cemented.

01:11:01.290 --> 01:11:04.470
And has been embraced by the broader medical community.

01:11:05.460 --> 01:11:08.550
Is applicable to rock climbers, runners.

01:11:08.940 --> 01:11:12.060
Surfers cyclists also.

01:11:13.080 --> 01:11:20.940
We can say Because if we do the right thing and keep pushing ourselves, I also recommend picking up Peter at Tia's outlive.

01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:26.280
In fact, he would make another great podcast guest someday.

01:11:26.310 --> 01:11:31.860
So if you know, Him personally, please ask him to come on the show.

01:11:32.790 --> 01:11:34.770
Until next time, stay healthy.

01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:35.100
Stay.

01:11:35.130 --> 01:11:35.700
Ageless.