Dean Karnazes: Fighting Fit in His 60s, Running Ultras on Weekends, and Tracing the Marathon’s Roots in Greece

Ageless Athlete - Dean Karnazes
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Dean: ~Talking to somebody in Northern Europe and I got the times wrong because I had just exchanged emails with you and I thought that they were also like nine or 10 hours ahead, but they were only like seven hours because they were in northern Spain. ~

~Ah, yeah. Spain is a couple hours different. ~

~Yes, yes, yes.~

~Dean, this is so great that we are recording today. Uh, I know I will forget this, but quickly, uh, just go over logistics. I know you are no stranger to remote recordings, but um, I can edit anything we talk about. If you need to hit the restroom or, you know, answer the door, feel free to do that. Uh, I have a dog in the front seat of my van, so if my dog starts working, I'll have to do the same thing.~

~Okay. And, uh. And yeah. Uh, any, uh, questions you have for me before we, uh, roll? I know time is precious, so I'm not gonna belabor the conversation. ~

~No, I think, um, let's, let's start recording and see where things go. Um, like you said, you can, you can edit out any blunders. ~

~I, I can do that. I, I don't expect any, I mean, you're a consummate, uh, storyteller and speaker, so I think it, it should be.~

~I'm super excited. Um, I know we spoke, uh, uh, we blocked time for two hours, but in case, uh, do, are we still good for that time, Dean, in case we need that? ~

~Oh, I didn't realize we had that much. Uh, I, I know you blocked that much time. I didn't realize we were going to go for full two hours. So, uh, how long do your interviews typically last ~

~between.~

~75 to actually, no, sorry, I should say 90 to a hundred minutes, but certainly respectful of your time. I know it's long block, so we can, we can, uh, make it more compact. ~

~Maybe we can chop it into two. Have you ever done that before? According like the episode two, you know, like this, ah, at a later period. ~

~Yeah, that's, uh, I hadn't thought about that and haven't done that, but, uh, I'm open to What's your heart cutoff for if you have one?~

~Yeah, I mean, I thought it was gonna be 45 to 50 minutes. ~

~Oh, okay, okay, ~

~okay. But like I said, I'd love, I'd love to do it in two segments if we could. I mean, that's, it's kind of like what, uh, like the Rich Roll Podcast, it's kind of chopped into two. ~

~Yeah, no. Um, I mean, yeah, I, I'm certainly open to, you know, it's, it's my little, little baby here.~

~I can do whatever I want and I'm open to, uh, experimenting and, uh, sometimes it's, it's, I guess it could be good to kind of keep listeners anticipating and hanging for more. So yeah, I'm, I'm open to doing that. ~

~We'll leave him with the cliffhanger. ~

~Yeah. Okay. ~

~Got it. Gotta come, but, ~

~yeah. Yeah. What is, uh, what is it, uh, so you're nine hours ahead of, uh, nine hours.~

~Okay. Okay. So I'm actually, so I, I'm actually in Mexico currently. I, I, I, I'm spending an extended period on a climbing trip here. I thought I would go back to California, but something's changed. So I'm guessing is it, uh, let's say, is it uh, 8 22 your time, or is it seven. ~

~6, 6 22. Oh, okay. Got it. Not So are you on Pacific Time?~

~I am on what they call central standard time. ~

~Ah, central time. Okay. Central. Sure. ~

~Actually there's a nuance, there's, there's a central time that, you know, they follow in like, uh, central US but here it confused me as well. They call it central standard time because Mexico doesn't follow daylight savings.~

~Ah. ~

~So I am one hour ahead of California ~

~ahead. Okay, so you're on Mountain Time the equivalent? I'm on, ~

~yes. Yeah, that's right. In the, that's right. Yes, yes, yes. Perfect. Uh, yeah, let's get started and then, uh, maybe we come to a natural breaking point, and then if you have to go, we can, uh, reconvene.~

~Awesome. I've already hit record because I sometimes forget, but, uh, let's jump right in. ~[00:00:00] Dean, I always like to start off with this question, which is, what did you have for breakfast today and where are you right now?

I had, um, uh, some olives and something called, uh, spina Cota, pie and maybe that gives, gives away my, uh, my origins. Uh, I'm in, uh, Athens, Greece. Wonderful. 

I have fond memories of eating Spana cupa on the daily. I, I've spent some time in Greece in the last few years on rock climbing grips, and, uh, I was on this island called ERs and they were this incredible bakery and, uh, yeah.

Um, it's a, it's a heavy breakfast, but if you are out, uh, exerting and moving the whole day, then I think it provides, let's say. Sustenance. At least that's, that's what I, I like to say. [00:01:00] 

I, uh, yeah, I ran a, uh, a, a 50 mile race this past weekend, so I'm still, I'm still post cargo loading, let's say. And so I'm indulging in the, in the, in the good, uh, Greek bakery items like spina Cota.

Amazing. Well, um, you certainly earned it, and your body is likely thanking you for the tasty calories that, uh, a good Greek pastry shop can provide. And I know, Dean, you appear to have evolved or you experiment with your, uh, your nutrition and you've tried different things. So I would. I'd love to get a little bit into that later, but I am fascinated about this time that you're spending in Greece.

I know you are involved as an ambassador for the [00:02:00] country, so please tell us what's it about. Awesome. 

Well, I mean, I'll, I'll start by saying that I am, uh, a hundred percent Greek, so by, um, an heredity. I'm, I'm Greek, uh, and I've, uh, was born and raised in California. So I'm, I'm Greek American as they say, or Greek, California.

Uh, and I've always vowed to get back to my ancestral homeland. Um, you know, I, I loved California. I love living in the us. Uh. You and I have a lot of, uh, things in common. I mean, California, uh, especially in the heyday when I grew up in the, you know, the seventies and the eighties and the nineties, uh, you know, the, the windsurfing was amazing.

The surfing, the rock climbing, uh, that whole, the whole movement, snowboarding came about. So many innovations, outdoor innovations, uh, I was a part of. And, and I loved it. And I'm, I'm grateful for those years. But I also studied classics. So I [00:03:00] studied, you know, the, the birth of the marathon, the birth of democracy, the, the birth of, uh, Western thought, and which started here in Greece.

And I've always bowed to come back and, you know, throw myself into it wholeheartedly. And, and that's why I'm here.

Well, we certainly have a, a few things in common and, you know, I read ultra math on man, like maybe. 15 years ago, I can't remember when it came out, but then I went back and reread it and I was transported Dean, because in the last decade or so, I've, I've spent a lot of time, not just in San Francisco, but a lot of the areas around, and I, I almost felt like I was reliving traveling through Northern California.

Through your eyes, through your storytelling. But coming back to just this little bit about your role, you are like [00:04:00] some kind of an official ambassador for Greece. You're living there now. You're, are you promoting Greek tourism? What, what? What are you doing there? 

Yeah, I'm, I'm the ambassador of Greek tourism, and I also work with, um, some of the, uh, municipalities like Marathon, uh, to increase, um, both the, the visibility and, and and tourism to marathon.

Uh, a lot of marathoners, which are millions across the globe, don't realize that marathon is actually a place and it's a great place. It's a, it's a, uh, on the, on the, uh, eastern shore of Attica. Uh, outside of Athens. And, uh, it's a beautiful beach and it's a place that launched the marathon in, in four 90 BC so, uh, you, you know, you'd be amazed if you went there.

Nowadays, not a lot has changed in 2,500 years, so, uh, that's good and bad, but a lot of the infrastructure, you know, needs improvement. Uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, [00:05:00] it's, it's, you know, it's, it's Greece. And Greece in a lot of ways is a second world country, believe it or not. Kind of still stuck in the, you know, the by roads of the, the east and the west and, uh, not having moved forward quite as, as rapidly as a lot of the other European, uh, nations, you know, uh, EU nations.

So I'm trying to promote, uh, both, uh, you know, uh, tourism degrees, uh, gastronomy to G Greece, you know, uh, culturalism to Greece, uh, just kind of, you know, hoping to bring more people to Greece to realize what a great place it is and, and the significance that this little small country plays in, in all of our lives in, you know, in the modern West.

That's incredible. I feel that, uh, they could not have chosen a better spokesman, not just for the country, but for what Greece represents in the modern world. And you're right, [00:06:00] like people seem to forget that these, let's say household terms like. The marathon or even the Olympics. They came from Greece and Yes, running and marathon running are deeply connected with their roots in Greece.

And Dean, you are such a great story. So would you behoove us for a moment and share the origin story from Greece of the Marathon? 

Yeah, it's a, it's a fascinating story. I think it's a fascinating story. Uh, you know, and it started again in four 90 bc Uh, what happened is that, uh, the Persians invaded Greece and they landed at a place called Marathon.

The translation of, of the word marathon in, in Greek is field of fennel. You know, like the herb fennel. Uh, because [00:07:00] where the Persian land, it was a big coastal field that was, um, filled with wild fennel, which grows all over Greece. So, uh, the Athenians realized that they were badly outnumbered by the Persians that were invading.

And the Athenians back in that day, in four 90 BC were not, they were not a military might so to speak. They were more, uh, intellectually endowed, uh, philosophers, you know, mathematicians, astronomers. Uh, so they knew they were gonna get defeated by the Persians and that they needed to recruit, um, another Greek city state to help them fight.

And if you've seen the movie 300, you know, who's the most badass fighting force in ancient Greece, the Spartans. And so, uh. The, the general for the, uh, Athenians dispatched this runner, uh, fip or feed PDDs to run to Sparta from Athens to recruit the Spartans into battle. And that's about [00:08:00] 153 miles. So this is four 90 bc mind you, uh, and this guy v DPDs took off running for Sparta.

He got there the day after setting out so roughly sub 36 hours. Uh, which is phenomenal to think that, you know, that that's a really respectable time to run 153 miles nowadays. But he ran, you know, probably barefoot. He didn't have, uh, consistent, you know, resupplies of water. Uh, he, you know, he, he, there was no such thing as a power bar.

You know, there's, there's no, or an eight station. An eight station, yeah. Or a headlamp, you know, I mean, how did he navigate, how did he see at night? It's, it's. It's unbelievable that he made it, uh, that quickly. But anyway, he got to Spart and he explained to the Spartans that, you know, the Persians had invaded and that they needed to come help their, uh, Athenian brethren, uh, to drive out the Persians.

[00:09:00] Um, the Spartan said, we're sure we'll come help you, uh, we'll bring our forces, but we can't leave for six days. And he said, why? And he said, because the moon is not full and Spartan religion for business from leaving for battle until there's a full moon. So Fitbit was in a pickle, you know, he, the Spartans were coming, but they were delayed by six days and had to go back and tell his Athenians that.

You know, what was going on. So he woke up the next morning and he ran back, back to, to Athens, into the battlefield of Marathon, to tell the Athenians, Hey, the barns are coming. They're just not coming for six days. Uh, you know, as things, uh, transpired, the Athenians decided they couldn't wait for six days.

'cause every day this foreign, uh, the Persians were reinforcing, you know, their, their position on the beach of Marathon. So the Athenians invaded, uh, they somehow drove off the, the Persians. They won the Battle of Marathon. Uh, afterward they dispatched, uh, fip for one last [00:10:00] run, and he ran from the battlefield to the Acropolis.

He proclaimed, uh, Nick. Nick or Nike. Nike, which means victory. Victory. We are victorious. And then of course, he famously died. Um, and just as an aside, that's, you know, that's where Nike got their, their name, uh, their footwear. Phil Knight got the, the name of the Nike Footwear brand. So that's, that's the backstory of the marathon.

Uh, and it's, uh, it's to me quite, it is fascinating to go to these places that, you know, hero just writes about 2,500 years ago. 

Amazing. What a great story. And, um, naturally heroic the origins of Marathon running. And actually, uh, you just blew my mind by explaining that the term marathon [00:11:00] comes from the herb fennel.

Because I am from India, a country that loves its fennel spice. So we have, yeah, I had no idea that the origins, or at least I don't know where fennel originated from, but fennel and marathon again, are like connected in this, uh, insane way. Um, Dean, you, I have to ask this. So you are in Greece now and you are maybe, like you said, retracing some of those ancient roots.

Do you feel different running than the US or anywhere else?

I mean, there's, there's a certain energy and a, and a and a power in Greece. You don't feel anywhere else. And you know, I've, I've run all around the world. I've run on all seven continents twice. [00:12:00] And, and Greece is very unique in that regard. Um, you know, when you, when you run up to the top of Mount Pinelli, which is not far from my house, you know, you can see.

The Bay of Marathon on one side, and you can see Athens and the Acropolis on the other side. So you can see all of the, the ancient routes, you know, that, uh, that fide followed. And as well as, um, you know, the, the marble for the Parthenon was harvested from Mount Penello. You can see exactly where they took the marble.

You can still see the big cuts, the marble cuts in the side of the mountain and the white marble rock and, and wonder just be filled with wonder at how, you know, 2,500 years ago before there was tractors, you know, there was no, there was no motorized transportation. How they got these huge multi ton pieces of marble, white marble to, you know, to the Acropolis from this mountain.

It's, it's, it's mind boggling how the, these [00:13:00] engineers were so ahead of their time so far ago. So, yeah, I mean. Yeah, I think it's not just me knowing the, the history. I bring friends here from the US that really are a little, you look a little bit clueless on everything. And they say the same thing, like, wow, there's an energy here.

There's just cer. They're this, you, sorry, you, you've been to Greece, you climbed. How did it feel climbing here? 

Oh my God. You, yeah. I feel transported hearing you talk, Dean. You know, so one of my trips, I was just up the coast from Athens, uh, on the peon East coast in this little town called, and it, it does feel that I was in some historic place because there's this beautiful little village surrounded by limes and mountains.

The village is ancient. I don't know how old. And as you're climbing, you can look over the horizons. Not only do you see mountains and cliffs. [00:14:00] Obviously a beautiful tree line, but you see little outcroppings of ancient structures, you know, and then beyond that you see the ocean. And it does feel that like, I don't know, like you, you, you are participating in some like ancient activity.

Like it was awesome. I am planning a return trip again, uh, this winter and yeah, it's absolutely one of my favorite places in the world to, uh, to visit now and rock climb. 

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great climbing in Greece. Uh, there's a, I mean, there's just a lot of great outdoor sports in Greece and it's, it's Greece still lags behind most of, you know, western civilization as far as outdoor activity.

I mean, you still, I mean, I still rarely see people on the trails, you know? Yeah. It's, uh, it is still kind of a throwback, like the, the whole outdoor scene here is, is so small compared to the us. I mean, [00:15:00] when I go back to the US in the summer and I go to the Rockies, or I go to the Sierra Nevada, you know, I, I can't believe, you know, you go to the Mountain witty trailhead.

I mean, you need to apply for a permit, you know, two years in advance here you can climb any mountain you want at any day, and you really see other people. 

It really, so I'm curious, I mean, why do you think that is? Given Greece's abundance of natural terrain, which lends itself to all kinds of sports, right?

Mm-hmm. Running, being such a big one, but also niche sports like rock climbing. All the oceans provide avenues for, let's say water sports. So is there, do you have a theory on why Greece is just now catching on? 

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, when the industrial revolution took place, uh, Greece was kind of left behind, and, and that is really there, [00:16:00] the, the mid 18 hundreds where Greece kind of was, became a throwback nation.

I mean, um, I remember my grandmother, who was, you know, had migrated to Greece when I said, Hey, I want to, yeah, yeah, I want to go to Greece. She said, no, you don't. Everyone's poor, and it's dirty, you know, so. He left at a time was really, it was tough. I mean, ma just, you know, just putting food on the table was a chore.

Greece, Greece was left behind in the industrial revolution and is just now catching up. And, you know, ma, many of the stereotypes, uh, that have long ago, you know, faded away in the US are still prominent here. I mean, you know, the, in the US for instance, um, about about. 50 50 of the marathon runners are female versus, and, and male and more like 60% of the half marathoners are female.

Uh, in Greece, the numbers are, are way smaller. I mean, I think 10% of the marathoners are female [00:17:00] and maybe 15 to 20% of the half marathoners are female. So, um, it's still very backwards in that regard. Like women, you know, are, are seen as household keepers and mothers. Uh, but it's changing. It's changing with, with people like me that are bringing in more, you know, westernized thoughts to, to Greece.

So I think it'll catch up rapidly. And, and the outdoor scene, I mean, it's, it's outsiders largely coming in and saying, wow, you know, look at that rock, look at that face. Uh, you know, let's, let's go climb that. Uh, so come back.

Greece is on its way. I can feel it to reclaim its, uh, place amongst the. Let's say top sporting nations. One last question. Uh, talking about Greece is, so, yeah, it's, it's so fun. I, I don't want to take all our time, but, um, what's your favorite thing about Greece Dean, besides [00:18:00] the running, of course 

the food.

Come on. Greek food is good. Yeah. And, and it's not, I mean, I, we talked about spina coa, but I mean, even just, there's something here they call Horta. I dunno if you remember that. It's just, it's basically wild greens, spoiled wild greens. And I. It just the, the grass itself has such flavor, uh, it's so unique.

It's, it's almost like a nutty almond flavor or a bitter flavor. So just, just the food here alone, the, the actual food without any sauces or gravy or anything to, you know, to, to, to complicate it. It just tastes so good. I mean, an apple, a fig, I can just go on and on, but just the, you know, you probably had some of the food yourself and thought it's, it's extraordinary.

The food is delectable, but talking of grasses, one of my [00:19:00] fonder memories is of, um, indulging in this, uh, this delicate type of mountain tea that, that the local, um, farmer's market would, uh, sell. You know, like you could just tell that maybe the people selling it had harvested and dried the tea themselves.

The tea is so flavorful. I have tried Vainly to look for it here in, so I, and another thing I need to do when I go back is to find that tea, 

the mountain tea. I'm glad you experienced that. I have it every night. Oh yeah. It, it's, it's wild. It's wild harvested, I mean, yeah, they, yeah. Yeah. And, and they, I mean, it's, they, they sell it for like two euros per a kilo.

Literally. I mean, they, because they, you pick it on the side of the road. Yeah. 

Amazing, amazing. Dean, we raised a bit ahead. There still [00:20:00] might be some people who are listening and don't know who you are. So who are you, Dean, and what do you do? 

I guess I'm best described as a, an ultra marathon or so. I run, you know, ultra the, the, the suffix Ultra means beyond or the prefix.

So ultra means beyond in Latin. So an ultra marathon is anything beyond a marathon. Uh, a marathon is 26.2 or 42.2 kilometers, or, or 26.2 miles. So an ultra marathon might be 50 miles, a hundred miles, 200 miles. Uh, some of the things I've done are, are not just races. I mean, I ran 50 marathons in all the 50 US states in 50 consecutive days.

You know, I've run a marathon at the South Pole. I've run across Death Valley in the middle of summer, so I'm an ultra marathoner. Uh, I'm also a, a writer. I've written, uh, five books. Uh, a few of them have been New York Times bestsellers. [00:21:00] Uh, I'm an entrepreneur. I, you know, I've done some investing and I started companies in, in footwear and, um, healthy, uh, active living mostly.

Uh, other than that, I'm just a dude. I mean, I've got a couple degree, a few degrees, um, you know, one in business, one in biochemistry, one in food science, uh, one in classics, classical studies. Uh, I don't know. I'm just a normal guy, I guess with a, with a curiosity, you know, hopefully I'm, uh, I'm still somewhat like a child.

I think I still have a great curiosity for life. 

Thank you, Dean. Yeah. Badass. You have, uh. Developed your life around running, but in this interesting and diverse way. I mean, it comes across in your speaking, in your writing, on [00:22:00] how you have, you have taken this pure love of the sport and you have seeded that in all kinds of ways.

Before we talk about your journey as a runner, I thought you should at least spend a minute here talking about the type of running you're doing these days. You just mentioned that you did a big race over the weekend. Mind telling us what that was about. 

Oh, yeah. Uh, the Greek, the, the equivalent of 4th of July was just this past weekend in Greece.

Um, it's, uh, March 25th is Greek Independence Day. So the place where the, the Greek Revolution was, was, uh, was born. There's a race, uh, from that place, uh, like a 50 mile round of this peninsula called the Manny Peninsula in the, uh, southwestern [00:23:00] section of the Pelo ponies, which you've been to of Greece. And it's, it's a essentially, I would call it the, the Big Sur coastline of, of, of Europe.

Uh, it's stunning. I mean, it's, it's mountainous, it's, you know, big, uh, sheer drops into the sea. Uh, so it was a 50, it was a 50 mile race from, uh, Aly where the revolution began, uh, all the way down the Mana Peninsula and back in finishing at Aly. It was historic as well as scenic. Yeah,

sounds absolutely gorgeous. That ghost is enchanting. How did you fare in that race? Green Dean? 

Uh, I did pretty well. I mean, I, I, I, I won my age group, but I always be my age group. No one really cares, you know, who wins your age group except for people in your age group? So, [00:24:00] uh, that was, that worked out well.

I mean, it was, it took me, uh, just I think nine, nine hours and 20 minutes. So, I mean, I was, uh, you know, in, in the front. I wasn't I first, uh, but it wasn't the last, it was in the front of the pack, let's say, and, and pretty happy with, uh, the outcome. 

From somebody who's never run an ultra Dean. I think just finishing an ultra, like basically winning something huge.

Uh, talking of age, uh, uh, how old are you now?

I'm gonna take my fifth, the right to remain silent. My, the, my fifth, the, you know, I, I'm over 60. Let's just say that. Yeah. 

I appreciate it. And I, I apologize for the rudeness. Sometimes I think that hosting the Ageless Athlete Podcast emboldens me to sometimes [00:25:00] ask, uh, you know, private questions. But let's just say this, you have been running ferociously for a long time, and you have this beautiful story, Dean, where you had this, um, aha moment at the age of 30.

You were. Living, let's say a more mainstream life in the city. We both call home in San Francisco, and it's been a long time since that night. And I'm just curious if that night, your birthday night and the impromptu 30 mile run that you went on had not happened. I am just wondering where do you think your life would be today?

I think I'd be probably, uh, [00:26:00] overweight and, you know, driving a red Ferrari bald, like a middle aged man, you know, that is bored as hell with his life. Yeah, 

it seems that you have, you, you're funny and modest, but it seems like you've always been naturally sporty, so if that. Run hadn't happened. You might have perhaps gone in and, uh, develop, developed, uh,

running.

So you pretty mild the couch. You wake up sore, but, uh, exhilarated. And then I believe, you know, your, uh, partner picks you up and then you come back and you say, well, uh, I think [00:27:00] I'm going to keep doing this. What was their reaction? 

Uh, you know, they were, uh, supportive but a little bit dubious whether I could make a go of it.

I think, uh, very supportive, but, you know, let, let's, let's put a timestamp on this. I mean, this is back in the early nineties. Uh, and you know, there, there weren't people, kind of, the gig economy didn't exist back then. I mean, there weren't people doing podcasts. Like there, there weren't people living life like you're living, let's be honest.

Uh, it was very less common. You know, nowadays it's, it's commonplace where people have a second job or, you know, a side gig or even, you know, make it their entire life, their side gig. But back then it was unheard of. So people knew, like, there, there's no money in ultra marathoning. Like if you win, you get the same, you know, belt buckle or, or medal as everyone else.

You don't get a big prize purse. You know, how are you [00:28:00] gonna keep the lights on? How are you gonna put food on the table? So there's all of those doubts, which I had myself, uh, and I thought, y you know, you, you're either gonna, uh, make a go of it and, and look back 20 years or 30 years from now and say, wow, that was a great ride.

Or you're gonna fail and say, well, at least I tried. Uh, but I thought if you don't try, then you're gonna look back your whole life and say, I wish I would've tried. 

You are correct, Dean. Thanks for reminding us that, uh, time has sped by and we are living in a very different, and yeah, even now when I tell my folks that I'm just gonna, you know, live on the road and climb and, uh, do this podcast, uh, I I, it, it gets, um, I mean, they have come around and they actually listen to the podcast.

So it's, it's been a, it's been a fun journey. But back then, you know, you, you took this big leap of faith after that [00:29:00] run happened, you went and started painting properly. You kind of went from, let's say, strength to strength. I'm just curious as to how the rest of your life evolved. Because putting the kind of time and grit into.

Training and running ultras. It's a lifestyle sport, you know? It's not like you can just go out for 30 minute, run in the morning and call it a day. You were running a lot, you were training a lot, sometimes you were running all night. So can you describe to us how your life was like back in the days?

Because a, a lot of our listeners are people, let's say kinda, you know, in our age group who are trying to figure out how do they put time into the athletic practice given all these demands between family time. So yeah, talk to us, Dean. How did you kind of thread that needle? What [00:30:00] was it that helped you keep all that going?

Yeah, and I mean, you make sacrifices. So you, you know, you get up early in the morning, uh, and you train, you know, on the, on the weekends, uh, you know, you, you don't do things a lot of other people are doing. You don't go to concerts, you know, you, you, you train. So, uh, thankfully I'm an introvert by nature. So I don't mind, you know, being by myself, I didn't really have much of a social life.

I mean, my whole social life was around my training and, and my family. Uh, and that's, that fit me by nature. So, uh, you know, I think a lot of people that get into old ultra marathoning, um, it's who they are. It's kind of consistent with their, their, their inner being. Uh, I do a lot of all night runs. I mean, if you're gonna run an ultra marathon, uh, you know, a hundred mile race, you're gonna be up all night.

So it's, you know, you need to train by running all night. [00:31:00] Uh, so I, I just, you know, put on a, a headlamp and, uh, put on a, a hydration pack, throw some money in there and just take off and go running for, you know, 12, 14 hours. Uh, and love it, you know, and, and you know, the encounters you have in the middle of the night out, you know, on some back country road I.

Are are interesting. I mean, with, with nature, with, you know, with drivers passing by, giving you funny looks and, you know, you just have a lot of it. It, it's, to me it's very, uh, it's, it's a, a form of entertainment. It's not what most people consider entertainment, but I think it's very entertaining. 

A hundred percent.

I mean, you know, the place in the world where, no, let me, let me rephrase that. Particularly in a country that is so car-centric, like the us just seeing somebody out on a highway or a street at an odd hour is strange. And yeah, I can only imagine. Yeah. The, um, the wonder [00:32:00] and surprise that you created during those, uh, epic long runs.

Um, here's a contrarian question. Did you ever feel guilty about putting so much time into your running.

Maybe a little bit, but I, I don't think so much. I mean, I, you know, I involved my family whenever I could, which was often. So, you know, my kids had been, I think on four or five different continents. And we, we've been to Australia together, we've been to South America together, we've been to Europe, together Canada.

So I always involved my family and I always made it nice for them. I, I didn't just drag them there so that, you know, when, when we're going on another trip, they'd be saying, oh, dad's gonna drag us here and there again, they'd, they'd look forward to it, which they did. So my kids got to experience the world, uh, through, through the adventures we were on, uh, which was, which was a [00:33:00] very unusual education.

But I think. Probably the best education you could ever want is a practical education of, you know, uh, traveling is, is unique, uh, experience onto itself. The, you know, the things you pick up on that you just can't be taught in a classroom. So, some of me, I guess at points felt a little bit guilty, but when it became more of my life, like that's how I was paying the bills, it was a little less guilt.

I would still, I still prided myself on, on, you know, making sure our household was a 50 50 split. You know, we, I, I did my share of diaper changes and dinner making and, and, you know, toilet cleaning and everything else, uh, which I really, I prided myself on that, you know, I, I, I, I held up my own and, and so I think when I look back on, you know, the way I conducted my life, I'm, I'm pretty proud of it actually.

Wonderful Dean, and it sounds like that was one of your, let's [00:34:00] say, not so secret secrets, which is, um, taking your family with you so they could experience these places and these moments again. It is so, um, yeah, it is so, uh, incredible that you were, let's say, a full-time athlete by most definitions, but you were also balancing this career in corporate America and running and, and managing a family.

Um, any hard one strategies on finding that balance, things that you did that the rest of us can perhaps learn from? 

Yeah. Well, I mean, again, I, I didn't have a social life. But I, I wasn't naturally a social person, so I didn't feel like I was fighting it. But you know, it, something's gotta give. So you've got social life, uh, you know, make, make your training partners, uh, you [00:35:00] know, your social friends, because that's what's gonna come down to, I would also say, you know, you said finding balance.

I don't know if I had so much balance in my life, I would say more it's, you know, it's, it's creative or, you know, chaotic harmony, if you will. Mm-hmm. So, you know, in, in the chaos and knowing that things are moving at breakneck speed, that is frenetic, that some things are gonna fall apart, you know, other things, uh, are gonna come together.

Uh, but just being committed to the fact that you're gonna do your best. And it might not always be, uh, perfect, but you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's the best you can do given everything that's going on. 

For sure. And well, one thing maybe to some advantage you had back in those days, you did not have the distractions or at least less of the distractions of, uh, the internet and social media.

And I, I think that if more of us would just [00:36:00] try to reduce or eliminate time that they spent on their devices, I think it is amazing how much, uh, room that frees up to pursue, uh, an actual goal. Dean, besides running you have also, uh, expressed your talents as a writer. Like I said, uh, you know, I have learned a lot about Ultra running in the last year or so since I started doing the show.

But reading Ultra Marathon Man, again, took me deep into, I. What it feels like, because this is not just running, let's say a marathon, up and down city blocks. You describe, you know, one of your opening scenes, you describe the Western States run and the environments that you had to go through, like all kinds of physical environments, you know, running from, uh, Tahoe to, uh, [00:37:00] Auburn.

So again, uh, I'm gonna ask you to jog your memory a bit again, which is, um, out of all of these races and runs, and you've done so many of different kinds, um, can you pick one that may have left the biggest mark on you, uh, physically, emotionally, and maybe even spiritually, and, and tell us what happened. I.

Yeah, and you know, I, I could talk about all kinds of crazy races I've done. I, I, you know, I'll never forget the, there's a race called the Atma Crossing, which is a seven day, uh, self-supported 250 kilometer race across the Atma Desert, which is the driest place on Earth. So Aama is in, uh, Chile in, in South America, you know, up against the Andes.

I remember asking the guy, you know, when did it rain here last? He said, well, it hasn't, and I said, [00:38:00] since when he said. Since we've been keeping records, like since mankind has been keeping records, they've never recorded Rainier ever. So it was very, very dry. Uh, you know, it was, uh, below freezing at night, you know, and you're sleeping in a tent on the ground, you know, I'm basing on hard rocks.

And then it was, you know, over a hundred degrees during the day. So that, that was a quite a grueling race and a, and a real test of, um, perseverance. But, you know, I think running 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. Was probably the most taxing because, you know, just, just running one marathon, uh, is tough.

Uh, you know, and, and, and getting up and doing that 49 more days in a row, uh, was psychologically it was, it was hard to overcome sometimes. I remember on Marathon 19, I thought I wasn't gonna make it. Like I, at the halfway point I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I, I'm gonna collapse right here. And then I started thinking I've [00:39:00] got 31 more days with this.

And so it's just so overwhelming psychologically to get through that one. 

Yeah. I mean, 50 marathons in 50 states, um, because it's not just one run that you can complete, uh, it's somehow pushed through. It is sort of this, sorry, but almost this grand hog day lifestyle where you have to wake up and you have to repeat.

This all over again. I also really enjoyed hearing about your South Pole adventure. I think what stood out to me on that one Dean is, is not just the running itself, but like, so, so many of the logistics and the entrapment you guys felt. Can you talk to us a little bit about how challenging it was to plan and execute a [00:40:00] race in some of the harshest environment that we know about?

Yeah. Well, I mean, one, uh, you know, the itinerary was a 10 day itinerary. So I told my, I my, you know, my wife, I'd be back to San Francisco in 10 days and 30 days later I stumbled back into town. So I learned a lot about, um. Antarctica and how, you know, how dangerous it is actually, I'll just say dangerous.

And, you know, looking back at things, you, you, it's, it's, it's amazing that we lived through that. I lived through that one and, and some of the other runners, because we were stuck on the polar plateau, um, which is, you know, the, the most remote place on earth in negative 25 degree temperatures for two weeks trying to run this race, just waiting for the weather to clear.

And in architect Antarctica, it, it doesn't always clear. I mean, you know, it rarely clears. We, [00:41:00] we came to learn, but getting to the point where. You know, they're, we're, they're, the organizers are saying, Hey, this is not gonna work. We're gonna have to go. And, and us thinking, you know, us runners thinking, well, we've been down here for so long, we've put so much into this, we're not leaving.

You know, those are the kind of circumstances where people get themselves killed. You, you know, you're a climber. I mean, it, it's, you know, you're, you're a hundred meters from the summit and, and the weather turns bad. And, you know, your instinct is, I'm so close, I'm, I'm just gonna go back that summit and, and then you gotta get back down.

So how many people have, you know, lost their lives by doing, you know, desperate things like that because, you know, because they're weighing the, they're weighing, you know, the, the, the stakes and how much they put into it. Like, I'm just gonna finish this damn thing. But somehow we were able to do the marathon and, and get outta there, um, unscathed, if you will, a little [00:42:00] frostbite.

Yeah, 

yeah. No, and not only the effort and time that you put into the preparation, but also the fact that that particular opportunity will not likely, uh, present itself. Like how often will you get a chance to go down to that extreme end of the planet and do this? So you kind of have to lay it all on the line and, 

well, I mean, there were, there were supposed to be, we were told there'd be 40 to 50 intre runners from around the world to, to run this inaugural this first ever, you know, south Pole marathon.

And, and there were three of us. Yeah. And, you know, and it was one and done. I mean, there's never been, it was supposed to be the inaugural race, like this ongoing series of runs, uh, marathons to the South Pole. And, and that was the first and, and only, and ever, uh, it, it's just too dangerous in operation. [00:43:00] You know, they have marathons on Antarctica, but they're, you know, they're at the, at the shoreline where, you know, outside, uh, not near the pole.

And, you know, the, the, the coastline, 'cause I've run, um, on the coastline of Antarctica as well, it's, it's much more temperate than the interior. 

Yeah. I was curious because they also have, you know, people again, accomplishing different kinds of, uh, let's say sporting feats in Antarctica, you have people who have, uh.

Who have surfed the coastline. People have, you know, they found waves, people have gone open water swimming. Um, uh, also they have been climbing expeditions. But what is a contrast again, Dean, between, uh, you know, what it takes to be doing something which is like, Hey, uh, we did this in Antarctica versus we did this right at the pole.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people, when I say I was at the South Pole, they, they say, oh, you know, the penguins and, uh, you know, with the polar bears, [00:44:00] and I kind of laugh because one, there are no polar bears in an, they're, you know, they're, they're in the Northern hemisphere, uh, but two, you know, there, there's, there's no penguins at the South Pole.

I mean, there's, there's not even bacteria at the South Pole. I mean, I remember the funniest thing when I, when I got back to San Francisco, I was shaving and I had the window open. I heard a bird chirping. And I, it struck me like, wow, that's such an unusual noise. 'cause Antarctica, there's no b, there's no nothing alive in the, at the South Pole.

So we hadn't heard birds or any seen any form of life, you know, the whole time we were at the South Pole.

Wow. Dean, that paints a vivid picture of like some of these, uh, sight and sounds that we take so much for granted. Every day you take that away from us and we are not the same people. And that is [00:45:00] perhaps a bit of a segue into talking about suffering, long endurance sports, uh, such as ultrarunning maybe in some ways the epitome of, uh, of, of this League of sports.

Um. Requires a capacity to be able to literally just suffer, you know, uh, maybe the run across the Atma or maybe a different one. I'm curious, um, was there a race team that almost broke you?

Uh, I mean, there's been, there's been many. Uh, there's a race called the Badwater Ultra Marathon, which we talked about, which is 135 miles across Death Valley, uh, in the middle of summer. And, you know, I, I've done that [00:46:00] race 10 times, and every time I thought, I'm not gonna make it like I'm done. I, there's, I can't, I can't make it another 10 feet, let alone, you know, another 30 or 40 miles.

So I think the appeal of that race to me, why it kept going back, is because I thought. It is so uncertain when you, when you, when the gun goes off to start that race, there's so much uncertainty that every time you finish it, you prove to yourself that you, you did something you thought was impossible, you know?

And people say, well, come on, you've done it 10 times. Like, it's, it's, you, you know what it's all about. I do, but it's still the same challenge the 10th time as it was the first time. So that's what I, I love about ultra marathoning is that it's, you can never take it for granted. No matter how good you are there, there's no certainty you're gonna reach the finish line.

Absolutely. And I, I also have sensed that, [00:47:00] you know, you can be the most prepared person, but if you are in some of the environments that are as harsh as the ones that you just described, there's so much that is left to that moment, that condition. I know you have likely spoken about this before, but any couple of things you fall back on, Dean, when you encounter conditions or let's say a point of suffering, which seems almost otherworldly, how have you found a way out?

Way out? Yeah, I mean, people sometimes ask me, you know, what do you think about when things get really tough? And I tell them, I, I don't, I mean, thinking is the problem. Don't think, just do. So, I, I've, I've paid attention to what I do when things get really, really tough. And what I do is I don't [00:48:00] think I just execute.

All I say to myself is, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Okay? Take your next footstep to the best of your ability. I don't think about the future. I. I don't reflect on the past. I don't do anything except be in the here and now, the present moment of time and put my next footstep in front of my next footstep.

And it's not so easy to do because our minds, even when you're exhausted, our minds are so active. I mean, even now is as we're talking, you're thinking about a hundred things. You're thinking about, where's my next client? What am I gonna have for lunch? You know, what's my next question for Dean? When's this podcast gonna be over?

Uh, but somehow quiet your mind and just focus on your next footstep. You can get through anything. And I've done it time and time again where I thought, I'm never gonna get through this. And I've just said, don't think about it. Don't think about how much further you've gotta go. Don't think about where [00:49:00] the next day station is.

Don't think about what you're going to eat. Just be in the present moment of time and take your next footstep to the best of your ability. 

You know, it takes me back to my childhood a bit when my parents would take us trekking and backpacking in the mountains and the goal was to make it to the next tree.

You know, we were these, uh, I don't know, these, my brother and I are these petulant, um, uh, distracted kids. Uh, and the goal was to just make it to the next tree and then the next tree, and then before you knew it, you know, we would, uh, yeah, sometimes wish that as adults, you know, we would be again, as or close to as impressionable as we were kids, and we would just listen to like a simple goal and try to maybe just follow on that goal.

One thing also, Dean, I wanted to ask you is [00:50:00] about, again, the relationship to the process over the years. So when we were exchanging notes, uh. We talked about getting beat up while surfing at Ocean Beach, the, uh, the coastline and the surf break outside San Francisco, which both of us called our home. Um, I started surfing it at OB in 2008, soon after I moved to the city.

And I just remember I loved all of those beatings, Dean. Like, you know, you know how difficult getting out at OB is even on like, let's say a a a, a, a not so intense day. I loved all of that, right? I was learning every, every little wave battled through felt like a win. But now I don't seem to enjoy it as much.

I have to confess, you know, I don't look forward to, I'll sometimes not go out on [00:51:00] those days when it looks like I might suffer more and I might not make it out. So how has that relationship with again, uh, the fight. Change for you Dean, over the decades? 

Yeah, I, the fight has changed in that, you know, before I used to think about getting on the podium, you know, now I think about finishing the race, like, can I get to the finish?

So it's, it's, it's more now for me about longevity, about, uh, staying in the game. You know, I've been doing this for over three decades. How many people do you know that have been professional athletes for three decades? It's, it's unheard of. I mean, there's not a professional basketball player, you know, baseball player, whatever.

I mean, there, there's guys, Tom Brady, right? He's, he's been doing it for, what, 12 years? 13 years, which is phenomenal. I mean, I've been ultra marathoning for over 30 years and I'm still doing it. So [00:52:00] now, you know, my challenge is just, can you persist? Can you keep doing this for another 20 years? Let's see how long you can go.

And if you look at runners, it typically, there's, there's two, two things that happen. There's people that are really great when they're young, and then that's it. They can't run anymore. They, you know, they burn out or they get osteoarthritis or that, whatever. And then there's people that start late in life and they set like incredible age records.

You know, people like 75, you know, running a sub four hour marathon. But there's really someone that's lasted for so long, uh, that's still kind of at the top of their game. So, you know, I'm, I'm trying to see how long the streak can last and, and trying to, you know, stay in the game, uh, for another three decades.

I'd love, you know, I tell people my finish line's a pine box when I, you know, when you put me in my grave, I'm done. 

Sure. And, and Dean, again, you know, those decades of consistency, [00:53:00] the fact that you just. Ran a race, a 50 mileages this past weekend is what makes you such a compelling guest for ages, athlete.

Are you still surfing much? 

Not, you know, because I'm in Greece now. Most of the time I'm not, but, uh, I, you know, I, I windsurf and I'm gonna start foiling. So the wind surfing here at Beck and, uh, I have surfed in Greece, regular surf. I mean, anyone who's a surfer listening to this might say what they're surfing in Greece.

Uh, I mean, it's not, you know, probably from California. It's, it's not great surfing Greece, but there is surfing Greece. Uh, there's a couple islands, cre uh, eia, uh, where there's, there's good waves. I mean, there's paddling waves. So I've surfed head high waves in Greece. Um, I surfed a right point that was, was really nice.

I mean, it's very, uh, hit or miss, very fickle. It doesn't break all the [00:54:00] time, but it does once in a while and it is certainly, um, a lot less punishing than it, than it'll be 

sure thing. And I have heard about e career and yes, Greece has waves, but you kind of have to, um, plan and strategize to be able to find those points of time when it might break in your favor.

Um. Dean, we are at an hour, so just a quick time check if we want to take a break now and come back or up totally up to, 

yeah, I mean, I think if it's possible, I think we should rerecord, I mean, not rerecord, but do a second recording. Um, maybe let's, uh, email again for some times that are available and do it maybe at the same time, uh, next week, if that's okay.

Absolutely. Yeah. We can find a time next week. ~Do you happen to have your cal right now if it saves some email? ~

~I don't, I have to talk to my partner to see Okay. What, yeah, what's going on there. But, um, uh, you, how about I'll follow up with you. I'll send you some times and, and dates and we can do it the same thing where it's the morning.~

~Are you gonna be in Mexico for like the next week or something? ~

~I, I will be, yeah. Uh, yeah, small change of plans. I will be here for the next month, next Friday. I actually have happen to have another, uh, podcast recording, but a different day next week will work, or the week after that will work as well.~

~Okay. ~

~So no worries. Friday, right? ~

~Yeah, no. Uh, I'm saying that my only block is, uh, around this time next Friday, but any other day of the week, including weekends, uh, uh, I don't wanna take up your weekend time, but any other day of the week, uh, is, is open. So I, I can shoot you an email, uh, after this, uh, and then we can, uh, take it from there.~

Okay. That'd be great. Thank you for your flexibility. 

No, thank you, Dean. [00:55:00] Uh, I get the chance to meet you again and ask you about your breakfast next time. Again, next time. I'm very jealous. 

I enjoyed our conversation. I'll talk to you at our next interview. Thanks a lot. Enjoy. 

Yeah, enjoy your evening. Talk to you soon.

Okay. 

Cheers. Cheers.