The $101M Global Race to Redefine Aging: Jamie Justice on the Science of Longevity, and Why Aging Is an Opportunity, Not a Decline

Ageless Athlete -Jamie Justice -
===

Kush: [00:00:00] ~Yeah, everything is good. Uh, some fun life changes, some, some, some new adventures. ~

Jamie: ~Yeah. ~

Kush: ~How about you? ~

Jamie: ~Yeah, about the same new adventures. Things going. I'm actually at home for the next couple of weeks, which is, um, haven't done that in a while, it feels good. ~

Kush: ~I know the last time we touched base, you were. I think you were in Europe or on your way to like Denmark or something?~

~Probably. Yeah. A couple of those for sure. ~

Jamie: ~Yeah. And then, um, and it was just in San Francisco area. So, um, yeah, missed there, but it was great. And then, uh, yeah, now actually back in Colorado through until early January, which is nice. ~

Kush: ~And well, amidst all the, uh, the hectic, uh, Yeah, I hope you you found some time for for family for play.~

Jamie: ~Yeah. Oh, yeah, always. Yeah No, I guess we can get into it, but I know before that I just wanted to make sure things are good I know you had some travel in the last few weeks and things were yeah. ~

Kush: ~Yeah, things are great. I just moved into a van I'm trying this you ~

Jamie: ~did so that's behind you. ~

Kush: ~Yes. Yes ~

Jamie: ~exciting.~

~I should have mixed~

Kush: ~Uh, my untidy cabinet. ~

Jamie: ~So this is great. So where'd you get your van? ~

Kush: ~I got this, uh, Mercedes Spinter. Yeah. I did things in a bit of a hurry and I got it mostly built out from somebody in Portland. That's so cool. That's so cool. I made some upgrades and, uh, took off, uh, from San Francisco about, I think it's been almost been a month now.~

Jamie: ~That's awesome. ~

Kush: ~And then we spent like 10 days in Bishop where it kind of rained and snowed on us a little bit. And now I'm at, uh, Red Rocks, ~

Jamie: ~just outside ~

Kush: ~Vegas. ~

Jamie: ~I love it. I love it. That's a great spot to be for winter. Yeah, no, huge, huge fan of the band life. So that's a, that's all fair game. Um,~ my mom actually.

Sold out. She did things kind of in a, in a reverse order. When I was young, I always wanted to take off and live in like a VW bus and just go snowboard. Um, and that was very much frowned upon. Um, and then my mom in her seventies sold out, she sold everything, bought a van. And so, yeah. That's amazing. years.

Yeah, we can talk about that, but we've, um, we've developed sort of a passionate interest in all things man, at least, you know, living vicariously through her nomadic life in her mid seventies. 

Kush: Oh, congratulations. This is such a, yeah, such a fun tangent where. I mean, it kind of has this, um, little time with longevity where, where things that we do in turn, uh, over time, maybe, uh, you know, inform our parents choices.

Jamie: Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. It's just, you know, some of us give ourselves the [00:01:00] freedom to live. fully live, you know, throughout our lives and, you know, and my mother was in a generation where she waited and, but now she's doing all the things she's in Alaska this week, she'll be back home in Colorado next week and, you know, she went and toured Europe on her own this week.

Uh, full, like she's, you know, she just, but she needed to, she felt like she needed to raise kids and do all the things first. And um, and so she actually encourages us the opposite is just go live. 

Kush: That is so, so cool. 

Jamie: So yeah, no, we can start wherever and however it's good to check in. Congrats on the van.

Kush: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. No, it's so good to connect again. I know we talked in person a while back and I'm sure there are exciting developments all around that I can't wait to jump into. Let's, let's jump right in and I always start with asking people this question, which is, uh, Jamie, where are [00:02:00] you today?

And what did you have for breakfast this morning? 

Jamie: Great questions. All right, so I am at home for a change in Grand Junction, Colorado. Um, which is a great, nice little small town. And we just moved here this summer and happy to be back in Colorado and really love being on West slope is the best slope. So, uh, breakfast, I had my usual, which, um, has been one of my recurring breakfast since my early twenties, peanut butter and banana on toast.

Kush: Oh, goodness. That's such a, that brings back memories. Yes. Um, you know, sometimes I feel like I've upgraded my, my nut butters. You know, but, uh, but yeah, something in my heart always speaks to a good old crunchy peanut butter. 

Jamie: It's exactly right. Now I keep going back to it as well. So I, I, you know, I, um, had health issues when I was in my twenties as I had started, um, running marathons and ultra marathons in my [00:03:00] early twenties in Virginia.

And, um, Was running and running longer and longer and had been doing everything that I thought was right for nutrition, meaning a lot of carbs, plain bagels, pasta, was vegetarian and not getting much protein, not eating much fats, um, and started going out and getting confused on runs. I got lost several times, um, and to date myself a little bit would leave, um, runs and try to run errands on my way home after going really, you know, long multi hour runs.

And, um, I started passing out. And so I, you know, I passed out and had to have emergency personnel called when I was Returning movies to a blockbuster video again, dating, dating slightly back when those were a thing, um, you know, passed out and had emergency personnel called when I was in a bank, um, cashing or depositing checks.

Um, and then finally, um, when I was driving home totaled my car. And [00:04:00] so, um, and so that was where I finally got help and went into the ER and the ER doc happened to notice that I was in running shorts and a singlet and, um, you know, had very obvious sort of running things next to me, like waters and whatever, because it was summertime in Virginia and I thought it was just getting dehydrated and maybe my electrolytes were off and I was trying all kinds of things and, um, and it wasn't until I went into the ER, they actually tested my blood sugar.

And found out that I have reactive hypoglycemia is that I just happened to be insanely efficient at putting away the glucose. And so I'm very insulin sensitive. And, uh, and so, you know, it wasn't until then I thought I was doing everything right for sports nutrition based on a couple of nutrition books I had and advice I've been following and a coach and, um, and women burn.

Fats different than men. I needed more fat and I need more protein. So, um, started working with nutritionist and that's when I started implementing lots of nut butters and oils. And, um, and so that became my daily breakfast and it was the thing I [00:05:00] knew I could eat and that it would sustain me for multiple hours on the trail.

I could go out, I didn't crash as hard and I started being smarter about what I carry and when. And so, yeah, so now since then, still 20 plus years later. Wow. Butter is still one of the biggest staples of my life. And you're right. I do alternate. Sometimes I go into almond butter and then I always go back to, I always, always, always go back to peanut butter.

Um, and I'll try and cash news. I try and other stuff. I mixed it up. 

Kush: But, 

Jamie: but yeah, me, peanut butter, and, uh, and occasionally a big spoon with a jar happens. 

Kush: Well, I, I will admit that, uh, if I open my pantry and, uh, I'm out of. Out of PB, I get panic attacks. Oh, 

Jamie: same. Yeah, we buy in bulk. 

Kush: No, that's awesome. And, uh, you know, you, you, you threw a breadcrumbs, uh, yeah.

And that little thing [00:06:00] that we will get into, I would hope to get into it with some, uh, more conversation later, but Jamie, um, those of us who don't know who you are, uh, tell us who are you and what do you do? 

Jamie: Okay, so again, yeah, I'm Jamie Justice and I have a PhD from University of Colorado in Boulder, and I am currently I still serve as an adjunct professor at Wake Forest School of Medicine and geriatrics and gerontology.

But my primary role now is with a nonprofit foundation called XPRIZE, where I'm the executive vice president for health. And I'm also the executive director for 101 million global competition called XPRIZE Healthspan. And so it's a, it's a incentivized competition to get innovators and companies and academic scientists from around the world to develop therapeutics to change the way we think about and treat human aging.

Ambitious. 

Kush: Yeah, [00:07:00] very exciting. And it's so cool to have you on this podcast because, uh, to me, you represent, uh, these two words that I am really passionate about. Let me stop asking. So you are not only leading groundbreaking work at XPRIZE. You are an outdoor athlete yourself. I am. When we talked about, uh, your running and, uh, ultra running, you know, uh, just maybe a decade or two ago.

What are your favorite outdoor sports? 

Jamie: Oh my gosh, so yeah, I have a lot. So, um, you know, mainly anything that gets me out of doors and I love really long days out. Running has been my staple since my early 20s. And it has been the one constant in my life. Um, and I have been on a running streak now for [00:08:00] not just shy of two years.

January will be two years where I've run a minimum of two miles a day every day. Um, with rare exception I had, uh, food poisoning that knocked it out. I could not run that day, and, and one or two others. But any day that I'm physically able to leave the house I am running. Um, and so that for me has been a staple.

You know, sometimes really long. Sometimes they're just short days. Um, but you know, through that my running competitions, you know, still race occasionally still add a few in per year. It's really fun. I believe in the power of competition. Um, is that, you know, competition isn't necessary conflict. It's often just people showing up together to start a line and to have a goal and do things we wouldn't normally.

So, um, I still love racing. I add, uh, you know, 50Ks, 50 milers to my schedule regularly. Um, and also do some fast packing. So I think my next, um, Um, and then my next effort there will be going with a scientist friend of mine. I think we're going to run the John Muir trail this summer. Um, so starting [00:09:00] Yosemite and ending on Whitney.

So some good multi day out on trail. It's great. Um, in addition to that, um, I also, I climb recreationally, rock climb for fun. My husband was a former pro, um, and our kids, uh, are, are competitive climbers. So, um, Toby, my now 15 year old, he is, um, he's really, uh, really invested in the, uh. USA climbing junior, uh, the youth circuit and, um, has done really quite well for himself and, um, and just absolutely loves it.

So, um, I have to say I spend more time, I still climb myself, but I've spent more time as lay slave and rifle over the last six months than almost anything else. Um, but, but still do climb recreationally and for fun. It's, it's great to be out. Um, and then also had a, uh, Former, um, competitive career in my early late teens, early twenties, um, where I used to, um, was a semi pro, um, snowboard racer.

So I used to [00:10:00] race all across, um, and I still snowboard. I still get out, but no longer race. Haven't done that for quite a while. 

Kush: That is brilliant. I, uh, I just learned a whole number of new things about you. And, uh, so one thing I picked on right away is, uh, Is this a habit or let's say maybe this power of habit and that you have with, with running being, making sure to get the, the, you know, the, uh, the mileage in every day and right away.

I think, I think what speaks to me is. We are not often motivated to do all of these things, you know, especially let's say maybe the weather is not great or maybe something else is off. I think, I think what you're saying is that you have gone past that and you've made it a habit. And it's something that is part of your daily cycle.

Jamie: That's [00:11:00] exactly. And I would say more than habit, it is, it's a, it's a practice. Is that there are so many things and I think that it prepares me for almost everything else in life. It's as important to me as my science as my work and showing up. I mean, it's a way to show up and be present even if it's just for two miles a day.

Um, my son used to run some of the miles with me and it was, you know, it was a mile or two every day that we would just stop and talk or just go through it. And, and I think the daily practice really changes it is that the conversation in my head stops being if I'm going to get out today and it restructures to where it's when and where.

And that gives me just, I mean, it's, it's just a mindset shift. And so it's less important what I'm doing, but that it's something every day. Um, and again, very rare, I think maybe on three occasions, I have not been able to run in the last two years. And again, one's food poisoning. Um, and one I think was a really nasty bout of norovirus coming back from [00:12:00] France.

So it's, you know, again, very rare, very unusual. Um, but even in those it's, if I'm physically able to get off the couch. To get off the floor, um, lace up and get out and the running is just, you know, it's an excuse and a way to be there and it's one that I can do anywhere. So it's the easiest one to implement as a practice.

Um, you know, my son climbs or does something climbing related every day. Um, whether it's just a core workout or something else. And I, and I do, I think it's that it's that daily patterning. Um, you know, I said I do meditate regularly and that's also sort of that same is that if I stop it going from if, and I just go when and how long, and that sometimes the run is the meditation is just really focusing on the footfalls, focusing on the breathing and just being where I am for a few minutes rather than somewhere else in my head.

It's important. Beautiful. 

Kush: And yeah, I mean, you may have said this already, but I think [00:13:00] this practice takes place in the outdoors. Yes, right. Yeah. 

Jamie: And all the weather, all the weather. Um, I ran, um, just to make myself and we can go into this at some point as I put, um, a fake race on my calendar this fall, because I've noticed now that I'm in my mid forties, that if I'm not actively doing speed work, I get slower, you know, which is fine.

Sometimes I run slow and I just sort of stop and check out the views, go with the dog, you know, and that's fine to run slow, but I've noticed that if I don't. Actively trained to get better is that I'm at an age now that it starts to get worse. And so I put a fake race on my calendar and on the day of my fake race, I could have changed it and I opted not to.

And so I went out and ran a half marathon just on my own, just to make sure I could keep my time. But it ended up being snow, ice, sleet. I could have run any other time. 

Kush: Wow. 

Jamie: But it's like, as soon as I started introducing the, [00:14:00] Maybe I will, maybe I won't, you know, it's just, otherwise just get out and do it.

They make great gear and sometimes suffering is important. 

Kush: Absolutely. And you also, also you point to the power of goal setting, right? Because, because that is so, so key. Um, let me ask you this, uh, Jamie. So I believe you are a keen listener of the. Ageless athlete podcast. So, uh, yeah, we are all about resilience and vitality, right?

What about this mission resonates with you personally and the work you do at XPRIZE? 

Jamie: Yeah, so I, you know, it was really funny when you, Asked me to be on the podcast. So for, for those listening at home, I actually found this podcast through other friends that were interviewed on here that are, are, are mountain athletes that have done really incredible things.

And, um, and I fell in love with the program and sort of what people are doing and the conversations, the individuals, the ideas, um, and it's, it's [00:15:00] really unique is that I think many of us look at aging as something that's really bad. Or it's something that's going to happen and maybe we're not excited about it, but it's really, you know, it's a gift and an opportunity.

And I love hearing the perspectives of people who just live their lives no matter what their age is, is that I think that's ultimately the goal, um, is keeping positive, staying focused, you know, allowing things to change. Um, but you know, that as the years go, like there's still some fundamental core piece of me, Right.

That doesn't. And it's, I think that's what I listen for. And that's what I hear. Um, when I, when I hear the interviews and I listened to the podcast, so I've become a huge, huge fan of this podcast because of that is that it's so positive and it's very genuine. Um, and that sometimes there's also really good advice that people are doing that kind of carries over as a mindset shift.

Um, And so, you know, that this [00:16:00] also resonates for my professional work, right? So as a scientist, that's the same thing that we're capturing is that we need a subtle perspective shift on what it means to age. And, um, what the hope is for us as we age, right, is that it's not sort of this gloom and doom march to destruction and deterioration that is sometimes portrayed on the news, is that we have these really incredible opportunities to live very rich lives.

That maybe, maybe some of the performance changes, but there are still so many things that can be done to sort of optimize how we live and to keep sort of the hope and dream alive. And so with our competition that, uh, that we're running is we're just at the start of this. And inviting scientists, teams, academics, anybody sort of, you know, in the same way that this podcast does, right?

Democratize health, democratize science. Let people in and, um, you know, [00:17:00] ask people to, you know, figure out whatever they need to do. But to show that it's possible to improve muscle cognitive and immune health as we age is that there are still things that can be done. Um, and so, yeah, so that can be really hard to.

hardcore kind of biomedical science, different biotech solutions, or many of it's the stuff that we know that our grandmas have already told us, or that maybe if we listen to a podcast, people have great tips that actually might end up working for me. So it's kind of a cool, it's a very cool experiment.

Kush: Jamie, you bridge these two worlds, right? So the science based approach to prolonging lifespan, but then also the power of lifestyle. Yes, and exercise and the outdoors and that's why that's why I mean, I don't have enough time for all the things I want to talk to you about, but let's just begin with talking about XPRIZE.

Right. And the work you're doing around, [00:18:00] uh, this specific prize, right. Around extending, uh, uh, lifespan and longevity. So tell us, what is it that you are specifically doing to help these goals? 

Jamie: Yes. So I'll give you just, again, a little bit of scientific. Background. So, um, I studied at the University of Colorado in Boulder and, um, and while I was there, I started working not just in, in looking at things that underlie how we change with age, um, but also got really interested in interventions and that, as mentioned, like, right, these are, these could be very, uh, they could be drug based and they can be other things.

Um, and so what we've known out of this emerging field, right, is that aging does have a distinct biology, um, and that aging, chronologic age is the strongest risk factor for most diseases that we think about in modern life, any chronic disease or, um, or even [00:19:00] disability. Um, but that, that biology, that very distinct biology is that it can be, um, It can be intervened upon.

Sorry, I have a dog behind me that has decided to chew with a chew toy. I hope the audience didn't hear this. 

Kush: It's all cool. I have a dog, uh, in my front seat and I hope that, uh, he doesn't spot any, uh, And moving things outside and start, uh, start working. 

Jamie: So I'll return to that. All right. So we know that aging has a distinct biology.

When I first started in this work, um, at the university of Colorado is that there had been, um, not just our group, but that a lot of groups had started doing work showing that if you can target that biology, again, multiple means. could be diet. In fact, diet is probably the very strongest as any kind of caloric restriction, dietary restriction.

Has the greatest effect on lifespan across many strains of mice and other conserved across other species, up to 30 percent lifespan extension. It's pretty wild. [00:20:00] Um, and so that's, you know, diet alone. And then there's certainly things within the health span is what we consider as I think of as more important perhaps than lifespan is how well do we or animals live within the years.

That were on earth. And I think that that is, is probably the bigger goal for most people is to extend your health span or how well, and how long you live in a well state. Um, and so again, these experiments have shown that whether it's diet, whether it's lifestyle, whether it's genetic manipulation, there are certain drugs and small molecules and other things that can be done that actually can improve both lifespan.

And health span, and that they've shown this reliably across different animal models, anything from mice, worms, flies, even non human primates or monkeys, um, and there's really cool stuff coming out with looking at therapeutics in dogs. So our companion animals is that we also want them to live well and long into their years that we get to spend with them.

Um, and so again, there's a lot of things that can work, but the [00:21:00] big question is, right, how What does it mean in humans, you know, to go from a lab mouse, who's in a controlled environment with a stable light, dark cycle, and you control everything and they're genetically not quite a lot like us, you know, they don't get some of the disease of aging and things that we get.

And so we're making really huge assumptions when we look just at the animal model and think it's automatically going to work in humans. We have a very different biology and we have a very unique social structure. And so when we think about what's. works or doesn't work in humans. One, we're still trying to figure out if these things that work in animals work in us.

And then two, we have to define what work means. And so, you know, if you did have like the perfect drug, the perfect therapeutic, the perfect diet that could optimize health and health span, you know, how would you even know? And so as scientists, like we have to put together frameworks about what that means for us.

We have to talk to clinicians [00:22:00] about when they have patients come in, what does it mean to the patient? And we also have to talk to individuals, right? So if my mom, who is an amazing woman in her 70s, if she starts on a therapeutic, how does she know that it is working for her? Um, and so this is a kind of a major area is that we're not talking about disease, right?

Scientists, investigators, regulators. We can do things about disease. You find the mechanism, you treat the disease, you treat, you know, the restore health, whatever it is, or you prevent death due to like, you know, end stage cancer or renal failure or something. But in the absence of that, we actually don't have a process as scientists or regulators or community to talk about how do you optimize health.

And so what we're doing in the competition is one, trying to, yes, get teams out there to show that there are solutions that can work in people, and then two, pull together huge teams of scientists, regulators, stakeholders, [00:23:00] people to say, if this works, what do we mean? How do we build the frameworks? How do we build an infrastructure not based on disease?

But based on health and, um, and it's actually, it's a really tricky conversation to have because it requires huge perception shifts, um, about optimizing health prevention, treatment, and how we care for our bodies. And aging is just one of the major contexts in which we can look at that. 

Kush: Yeah, I agree that a lot of the conversation and, uh, practices and culture and all of those things.

I mean, the Zeitgeist seems to be. Pointed this way. And I think you're trying to trying to just, uh, you know, turn the wheel a little bit differently So so people mean actually not all know about this amazing, um, the competition non profit to start with and I had heard about it and then I started looking [00:24:00] into it and The origins of XPRIZE are so connected with some of the most.

Um, exciting thing Advancements we have around, uh, exploration. So, uh, tell us what is XPRIZE fundamentally and why, why is it so relevant and the work that you're doing with XPRIZE? 

Jamie: So again, I had never heard of XPRIZE until they knocked on my door. I was running a lab. I had great things going, was really well connected, had grant funding, was actually just finally got to my goal where I was going to submit to the My promotion and tenure materials.

I got a call from, um, who was the founder of XPRIZE, Peter Diamandis, for that he had raised money to, for this prize on HealthSpan. And so that was my entry into it. But I had never heard about XPRIZE either until I got the call. And when I started looking into it, I started doing the same thing. Like, I had no idea this foundation existed.

But it's actually, it's been behind a lot of the major discoveries that are, are, um, you know, are [00:25:00] available to us across science and technology. So it started 30 years ago, again, with a dream by Peter Diamandis, um, that he had desperately wanted to be an astronaut and could not. And so he found other ways that he could try to catalyze the space industry and space exploration.

Again, just his major passion area. Um, and so through this, you know, it was at a time when all space exploration was government controlled, right? So we have NASA, we have the Russian space, um, initiatives. You had all of these countries that were going after sort of these major space related goals. Um, and there was no pride of his privatization and no sort of commercial aspect to it.

And again, this doesn't mean that great things can't be federally funded. They can be, um, but that if we invite competition, we can actually expand the boundaries of who actually gets to participate. Right. And, and what do we mean? And so he put together a prize that was $10 million to incentivize teams to, um, from around the world, uh, from any either private, [00:26:00] academic, um, uh, government, any of it that they could come in and they could try to build a spacecraft or craft that was capable of carrying three people.

A distance of 100 kilometers and it had to do it twice in a week. And so the keys to this, right, is that the 10 million prize wasn't to go to the moon. But it was to do something that at the time was completely audacious that people thought it was crazy is to catalyze a new field. The impact was to change the regulatory space so that there could be some privatization and commercial aspect to space exploration.

Um, and to open the boundaries of who could participate. Um, and so by doing this, yeah, the teams paid way more than 10 million to one builder craft. test it, do the thing. They went after the small but achievable goal. It still took them 10 years. But when the winner took home the prize is that we brought the public along with us, or Peter did, and really kind of made this huge on ramp, [00:27:00] um, where there was suddenly there was a, a commercial value in doing this thing.

thing, um, that it actually, um, you know, Richard Branson bought that company that was the winner. And so their payoff was a whole lot more than 10 million that was for the prize, um, and that it became the sort of the space industry, um, as it's being built today. And I know that some people certainly, whether you consider that a pro or con, um, it has catalyzed a change and improvement.

Um, At least within the field and has changed the way we think about space and so XPRIZE that was where it started and then realizing that that was probably a pretty good idea that the impacts far outweighed the investment from the original, I'm sorry, family who put up the 10 million, which now Anusha, I'm sorry, she was the, she was the, the backer for this.

She became the first Iranian woman to make it to the space station. She's an astronaut. She's amazing Um, and she is now our ceo. So she [00:28:00] She runs the show So peter is still our chairman. He's still involved. He's a major public figure Um, but anusha is one of the most incredible women i've ever met. Um, and so she's led the company It's been around 30 years They've launched 30 prizes since that initial space one, um, and, you know, started for moving from space goes into, uh, our most recently awarded prize was for, uh, rainforest development.

So spend sending craft into, um, unmanned craft or, or, um, technologies into the rainforest for the purpose of, um, collecting specimens, uh, to evaluate biodiversity within the rainforest. But in a way that doesn't have a human impact of going into the environment because when you put a human in you change the Environment and so it's been really important to try to find monitoring systems and so that was our most recent winner and by complete coincidence the winner was actually a professor at Colorado Macy university lives here in Grand Junction, Colorado I promise I did not move here and I had nothing to [00:29:00] do with their win, but it's It's exciting there.

We also have, um, a major hundred million dollar prize active right now for carbon removal. So again, yes, prevention is important, reducing our emissions, but we also do need active solutions to try to remove carbon from the atmosphere. So there's an active prize looking at carbon removal. Our other big one that's active is in, um, oh goodness, it's called the Water Scarcity Prize.

And so that is one to, um, for teams to develop at scale and at cost, uh, solutions to desalinate water. So that, um, there are major cities that are at sort of day zero, um, and have no access to clean water, might have a new source, uh, that's, that's feasible and, uh, and affordable enough to have major public health, um, implications.

Um, and, uh, and we have a few others. So again, we run prizes sort of that really span. The world of, uh, [00:30:00] of areas that need global change. And so we introduced global challenges to overcome them. Jamie, yes, 

Kush: yes, incredible, right? Um, so Express has gone after some of the, uh, torniest problems that maybe one nation or one community itself can't tackle.

It requires that level of, uh, global, uh, to use your expression competition, but in a good way. Yeah. And then. Yeah, I mean things like space exploration, also, also things which may not seem so sexy, right? Like, uh, carbon desalination and, and water. Those are like really, really, really important things, right?

So, a contrarian question here. Of course. Human lifespan, right? Yes. Has already grown by a significant margin, just in the last century. Right. And on top of that, the, the population of this planet is huge. Only seems to [00:31:00] increase. Yes. 

Jamie: 100% . Yeah. None of those are those, those are, those are facts, not opinions.

Yeah. So, so why 

Kush: is it. Why are we using our resources to focus on this, uh, this challenge? 

Jamie: Oh, no. So that is such a good question. Um, and it actually ends up, and it is a nuanced answer. So you're absolutely right. So right now, humans are living around, and most Western and developed countries, about 30 years longer.

Our life expectancy is about 30 years longer than it was at the turn of the century, so early 1900s. So 100 years extra 30 years is that's pretty amazing. And so what we're living with now is for the first time a change in our, in our population structure is that we're the first of generations to actually have most of our natural predators removed.

And that's been mainly through public health, right? So we have, um, you know, through, uh, clean water. through [00:32:00] sewage, through vaccination, through improved maternal care and infant care, and through better trauma treatment, right? And so if you don't get thrown off a horse and break a leg, you're not going to die in most cases.

If you have a heart attack, people are also not as likely to die as they once were. We have all of these managed conditions. And so we are living longer, but the subtext here, right, is that even if, you know, even if we're not trying to change our upper dimension, right, that sort of that upper maximum lifespan or median lifespan, um, the truth is, is that we don't have a care or health system that is capable of addressing our health.

During those extra 30 years of life, and if we actually look at the numbers from a public health level that there's something called the health adjusted life expectancy, which is how long are you expected to live, um, without a disease or disability that's going to have a major impact on, on your engagement, your ability to live [00:33:00] and to be in a, in a community.

Um, and that's in the U. S. There's a 12 year gap. So our life expectancy has increased. Our health expectancy has not. It's hit a cap and just sat there. And so the, the push for this prize isn't necessarily how are we going to make people live forever or be immortal or, you know, any of those things. It really is how do we tackle solutions to actually address health.

So that the years we have are spent in better condition, better functioning, better engagement and that we can change the perspective and the shift of how we think about the relationship between aging and disease and aging and disability is how do we shift from a sort of a hopeless mindset and a palliative approach to aging to one of one of care and promise.

because I think there still is a lot that can be done in those out years, um, that actually lessens our impact on the environment is that that's one of the other things is yes, as we [00:34:00] live longer, those who stay in decent health and can remain independent, their impact on the planet is actually less than many others in the population.

But again, it's those who are not so dependent is that as soon as we begin this sort of this active acute care model and leaves late stage, um, whether it's through dialysis. Or other sort of those medical costs and medical needs. Not only does it have a personal burden, it has a caregiver burden. It also has a major economic burden and a big urban footprint.

And so again, any solutions we can do to actually improve our health and independence, um, it automatically impacts, has an environmental impact and footprint as well. Um, and so the two are not as, um, in conflict as they might at first seem. 

Kush: I appreciate that. The one other thing I was thinking about when you were talking is, um, also that, well, for example, I feel I [00:35:00] am using more resources in my, in my older years.

I am also in my mid 40s than I did like, even like 10 years ago. And sadly, I mean, those, that, that, that, uh, draw I have on, on society. Will not go down, right? The other thing I also realize is a lot of people when they reach, let's say, you know, what what? Popular culture calls like those golden years, right?

And and They are often at maybe be at their peak or close to the peak of their intellectual and cognitive capacities. But if their health does not cooperate, we lose so much of that capital. So I, I think that, yeah, I think there's, I love this reframing where, you know, once, once you get to a certain point, it's not about keeping you alive.

It's about helping [00:36:00] you continue to be a contributing member of, uh, Actually, one other question I thought I would ask is, this is a global competition, right? 

Jamie: Very much. Yeah. So just to give you, I'll give you a snapshot. So we have right now at the time of this recording, we're actually still, um, we're still recruiting.

Uh, so teams are coming in from around the world. We have about 550 global teams who have registered. Um, they are coming in from 55 countries. They're not just Western countries. Like we're seeing this, we have, um, we have most continents. We don't have a team from Antarctica. That's the only, that's the only major continent we're missing.

Um, I invite a team from Antarctica, but we haven't had one yet. Um, but I mean, this is a, it's a global issue that. A lot of people are talking about because the change in population dynamic is that when we've inverted, we used to have what we call a pyramid, right? So you have more people that are young, you have more people that are, [00:37:00] um, sort of, again, children through young adult, middle adulthood.

And that's, you have this big bubble at the bottom and then you have very few older adults in most populations that sort of. Population pyramid has shifted where it's become rectangularized where we actually now don't necessarily in a lot of our Western cultures. We actually don't have more young. Um, so we have a very flourishing aging population that our society is.

And our medical systems don't know how to handle. But I mean, this is also society, right? And so how do we begin to actually embrace people as they age? You know, maybe even as athletes, right? Maybe have a master's category that's a little more inclusive than just 40 up. Encourage people to participate.

Think about, you know, lifelong approaches to education and training and, um, and re skilling. Is that maybe the job I had in my 20s isn't going to be the job I want in my 60s and 70s, but it doesn't mean that I don't have something to contribute. It just might be in a different way or with a different perspective.

And that we know that when people [00:38:00] age is that they actually do become better community members. I mean, this is one of the things that I think, you know, wisdom is a real thing. It can be quantified and that, you know, those, our elders in our society do bring better wisdom, balance, and perspective. If we give them a voice And a place to be, but if we continue to remove that power, you know, that we're really, we're, we're doing ourselves and our society is a disservice.

And that one part of it is by, you know, one part of it is this health thing, right? I said, if we have these therapeutics, if we begin to address sort of this biology of it, that's one way to show that it's like, hey guys, this is really, and it's important. There's, there's opportunities and there's hope. Um, but, you know, but it also has to be coupled with building the discussion around how do we now embrace our aging societies or aging populations?

The answer isn't just to put people in a home and forget they exist. It isn't to ignore them, it's to invite them in, have the conversation. And so I think that's, you know, again, back to your podcast, this is one of the things I love the most is [00:39:00] we have the conversation, you know, there's a lot of hope and there's a lot of potential and there's a lot of beauty and being able to live a long, productive and full life.

Kush: Sure. Well, again, I appreciate the global nature. of this, uh, this competition. I think it, uh, brings forward these perspectives, practices, cultural differences to the same playing field. Because again, I feel like a lot of the, a lot of the. Conversations in the West have been about increasing this lifespan of people who some would argue are already living pretty long, right?

So the fact that you have people from all over the world, I think they are informing where this price goes. Um, give us a little snapshot of where we are with this price today. And, uh, and sorry, what, what I love about this price also is. [00:40:00] You are looking for empirical evidence, right? It's so it's not a point in time thing.

It's about being able to evaluate the actual differences being made. So unpack 

Jamie: that a little bit for 

Kush: us. 

Jamie: Great. So again, we're at the start of this competition. Um, we're still right in a period where we're inviting teams to compete, to form, to think about if they had a therapeutic or maybe they have an approach or a protocol or an exercise program, whatever they do, we leave it That's the premise of the prize.

Um, we just invite people to a start line. And so the start line is open right now. Um, we have again, over 500 teams already stating interest. I think 550 now, um, we'll pair, we'll narrow those down in 2025 to get the top 40. So it's a top 40 teams that have something that they're doing that are in our independent panel of judges says, you know, yes This is a good idea.

Yes. It's likely to be safe Yes, it's likely to be scalable and accessible [00:41:00] because those are other metrics, right? So you can have the best thing in the world But if it only applies to one person or only less than one percent of the population can afford it who cares? That's not important and so we're looking to For things that are, again, scalable, accessible, feasible, and, um, and may actually work to improve function and health.

Um, and so we are inviting the teams in, um, the top 40 will be down selected in 2025. From there in 2026, we'll have another period where they have to go out and show that they can do this in humans. So they have to recruit people, middle aged, older adults, into a trial. At least a few of them show that they have the resources available to do that.

And then the top 10 from there will be given 1 million each. They go into their clinic. They run a one year clinical study where they implement whatever their concept is and that we build the infrastructure around them. We give them a playbook essentially of what they have to do. Um, we set up a data [00:42:00] system.

They can enter their data in. Um, if there are certain biomarkers or things we can measure in the blood or digital biomarkers or imaging, we'll do that. We tell them what to do for those and we use those for judging the results. Um, so again, it's decentralized and that we let the teams do what they need to do.

We don't tell them what to do. We just, again, have those judged characteristics on what we think will be important so that we can get solutions. To people that matter. Um, and so the countries right now that are most well represented in our competition, we have the United States, not surprising, we're based in the U.

S. Um, we have Canada, also not surprising, our North American partners listen and have a lot of great resources. Next, we have India. is our third largest. Um, we have China, Japan, and the UK. And so again, these are our top few countries. Outside of that, we have great teams coming in from just about everywhere else.

A lot of teams from other countries in Europe. France is well represented. Uh, South [00:43:00] Africa is well represented. Brazil, we have a number of great teams from South America, Australia, and others. So, I mean, this is, uh, it's truly global and once we shut down the registration on, on December 31st is our team gets to go in and do a deep dive on the solutions and start to see what's Are people proposing to use?

Right now from a snapshot, we have, um, a lot of our teams are using what we call lifestyle interventions, right? So this isn't like scary drug land, like we're talking about sleep, diet. exercise programs, resistance training, um, other combinations, maybe using digital biomarkers so that people get feedback and kind of biohack for themselves to figure out what they're doing.

Um, we have people coming in with a lot of solutions. They're either doing those alone or in combination with either vitamin supplements, nutraceuticals, some drugs, either new drugs, [00:44:00] repurposed drugs. We have biologic therapies like stem cell therapies coming in. There are newer gene therapies and RNA based therapies.

So again, we have, we run the full gamut, a loner in combination, and that this is a chance for people to test things head to head and just see, um, we even have some teams coming in with public health solutions. Like, what happens if you have unhoused individuals and you give them housing and food and water and medical care for the first time?

Like, can you get these kind of improvements through simple, maybe not simple, but actual proving public health solutions? Um, is that, you know, that's the, Still, even in the U. S., especially in the U. S., perhaps, right, is, is a major concern. As people age, they can no longer afford to live in their homes, um, can no longer afford many of the resources, and it's forcing, um, people of all ages to make really tough decisions.

Kush: Wow, Jamie, [00:45:00] gosh, I had no idea that the diversity of the applications, uh, spanned this huge spectrum. So the submission deadline is end of this year. It is. And after that, uh, the, maybe there's this, there's a, there's this, uh, further filtering 

Jamie: and 

Kush: then, and then, um, the awardees get this, um, extended period through which, during which they, I think, have to, uh, Actually implement their solution and prove 

Jamie: that 

Kush: this has an impact.

I think you've already hinted at this a little bit, but could you just, uh, spend a quick minute and talk about like, uh, What do they actually have to prove and how much time and once they've done that then how does the let's say the the finalists or the the The winners get to implement this because I, I can't, I can't wait [00:46:00] to hear about that and I can't wait to raise my hand up and say, yes, you know, I want to be part of that.

Jamie: Yeah. So it's exciting. So we have, um, again, right now we're at the very beginning, the, the finals will be awarded in 2030. So. So that feels like a really long time, um, for, especially for general public, anyone who's not run a clinical trial, like it feels like forever, but for anybody who's run one, it's like, oh my gosh, it is lightning fast pacing.

Um, so, you know, to take a drug or therapeutic to, to a next stage trial is typically on the order of 12 years, 15 years. We're asking people to go from the lab. To a completed trial in less than seven. So it's, it's a really, really tight turnaround. Um, we're asking teams to go out. Um, again, they bring us their solution.

They tell us where and how they're going to test it. Um, we give them the next stage. That's like kind of a feasibility check. Can you do this in humans? Do you have a good center? Can you submit data? All of those things that we need to do for [00:47:00] testing. That's the next stage. Um, the finalists again, they're going to be running one year clinical trials.

That means they're recruiting people who are age 50 to 80. Um, the only constraints we give them is it can't be in a life threatening illness that you treat. Like you can't take somebody with late stage, you know, kidney failure, you give them a transplant and you call it aging like that. We're like, okay, that's disease treatment.

We're trying to get out of that disease model and get people to think, even if they're testing people that have pre, you know, subclinical disease or some conditions or something, um, but that you're testing therapeutics that are, are really focused on optimizing health. Um, and so how do you do this in a very thoughtful way?

Um, and again, we leave most of this, uh, back to our teams because. That's how we open the door for innovation. Is that if scientists keep making all the rules and telling people what they should and shouldn't do, we're going to keep getting the same solutions we've always gotten. So it's, I mean, we're trying to [00:48:00] democratize it as much as possible as the pathway for innovation.

Um, and so it's, uh, it's a very, very different model from how we usually approach science. Um, and, uh, and that we're hoping that this will, you know, that we can finally get. something out here that works, or at the very least, you know, have ways to judge, um, whether something is a good use of time or money rather than a whole lot of self experimentation, which I think many of us, um, athletes and community members end up doing something called, they call biohacking, right?

Whereas you try to figure it out with yourself, but, you know, in a really systematic way that might be small solutions for one person, but, um, but what we're trying to do is find something that can scale. 

Kush: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so, so fortunate to kind of catch you at the beginning of this and then, and then, uh, you know, uh, we will continue tracking the progress of this, uh, one, one other thing I wanted to say is yes, [00:49:00] uh, before XPRIZE, uh, for sure you might have been working on cutting edge Experiments in your lab, but I feel that, uh, yeah, XPRIZE could not have maybe found a better spokesman spokesperson for this initiative because your excitement for the work that you are doing is, is so palpable.

It's fun. Yeah, it is infectious. So 

Jamie: It's fun, but at the same time like i'm a firm believer in this So I love the sciences like this is like, oh my gosh I love the sciences always have and it's an incredible opportunity um, and that You know, I'm, I'm a firm believer that we should be celebrating our scientists and our innovators every bit as much as we celebrate, you know, prolific artists, musicians and athletes.

You know, I, um, I watched the Nobel prize announcements as if I'm watching the NFL draft pick. Like it is, it's just, [00:50:00] it, we, it is that exciting to be able to, um, to be able to, it's, it's, Every study, every small discovery is another understanding of this wild universe we live in. 

Kush: No, absolutely. So, uh, we spoke about biohacking for a second there.

And, uh, I will use this like, this, this, uh, this term to ask you about, so the, the field of longevity has, I feel like that's suddenly taken off, right? At least in the zeitgeist. And there's this, uh, focus on like high tech interventions and, uh, again on biohacking. And there are, you know, let's say certain popular, um, uh, figures in, in, in, in the space who have suddenly kind of, uh, kind of become larger than life.

how do you see your approach at XPRIZE, compared, with, what popular public has, has been hearing about? And you are totally correct that we don't celebrate scientists [00:51:00] and, uh, medical experts enough, but now we have these other people who are doing really well with being able to capture people's imagination.

So can you speak a little bit. I feel like you have something to say on this topic. 

Jamie: Always do. So, um, you know, and this is one of the challenging ones, like as a scientist, I think all we do is just say, okay, you know, show it, quantify it, prove it. And that, um, and that, that can be really challenging. Um, both good and bad.

Right. The, the, the challenge isn't bad. It's, it's. You know, you have to have a model and be willing for it to be wrong, and there's a certain amount of risk that's inherent in the practice. Again, it goes back to a daily practice of science. It's not memorizing things. It's, it's poking and seeing what happens, you know, um, mess around and find out.

And, you know, can't be so committed to the outcome that you're not willing to let it fail. It's like signing up for a race. If you, you know, if you know that you're going to win, what's the fun? 

Kush: Yeah, 

Jamie: you go out and you race and you do the thing and, and, and it makes yourself very vulnerable. [00:52:00] Um, and I, and I think that some of this is the same practice.

I think what I am always leery of is sort of the, uh, the untested boasting, right. Is that longevity might feel like it's zeitgeist, but certainly the fountain of youth has been part of, um, Um, global societies from the beginning of time, you know, talking about this, looking at this, and that as long as there has been, um, uh, you know, an actual scientific inquiry into improving health, there's also been charlatans and snake oil salesmen, you know, of having the answer in absence of any real proof, you know, showing that anecdotal evidence should trump Actual data.

And, um, you know, so there, there is a scientific literacy that we're hoping to impart by running the competitions as well as it open it up for anybody, but we're giving you a start line and a finish line and anyone can show up [00:53:00] and prove it and also be willing to be proven wrong. Which I have to say many in our commercial specter are really, um, maybe not as willing to do that because there is a certain vulnerability about doing this on a global scale.

Um, whereas others might be, you know, just why not roll the dice and try it, you know, as to at least show up and use, use a common, a common rule book for the first time. Um, and so, you know, so there is, there is a bit of both. Um, I don't want to call out specific names that have been very, very vocal in the public about having the answer, the playbook, the blue book, and no real proof, a lot of statements, a lot of commercial sales, um, cause there is good money in health.

There's no need to prove it if it can go to direct to consumer, and so we're sort of setting up a middle ground that we're not the FDA. We're not the regulators. We're not doing that, but we are saying that there must be some [00:54:00] measure of proof, and if nothing else, prove it to us. Prove it to our family members, prove it to somebody, is this going to be worth the risk?

Um, because that's ultimately what it comes down to, is that anytime we change something in our lives, there's an inherent risk. And I'd say that in our lives, Ben, I say that very openly, so we think about this on the, on the drug development side, right? Because that's ultimately what the FDA is doing, is, Does the risk of taking this outweigh?

I mean, excuse me. What does the benefit of taking or doing this thing? Outweigh the risk and when we're looking at aging that becomes really important is that You're not necessarily treating a disease So how you do that risk benefit balance thing becomes really difficult to determine So it can be good to do some hand waving and say i've changed this Biomarker that you can pay five hundred dollars to get measured in the mail But But if it doesn't mean anything, we don't know that we've really changed that sort of risk benefit.

Um, and you know, and that's not [00:55:00] just for drugs. It's also, you know, diet. I think, you know, anybody who's done, sure, caloric restriction diet might extend lifespan and some mice by as much as 30%, but for anybody who has tried to reduce their own calories knows that it can come at a cost. You know, is that there, there is always a cost, you know, change your exercise paradigm by too much and there's always a risk of injury, even though you might also get a major benefit, and it's the personal decision about where that risk benefit lies.

Um, when we go into aging and starting to test things in older adults, we also have to understand that the context of, of. Their internal state does change, right? So as, as we age, our body composition changes, how we metabolize drugs and certain things changes, um, how we process and store nutrients changes.

And so again, if you going back to the weight loss example, right? Tell somebody to go on a diet, they're going to lose weight. You're going to feel better. All those things are great sometimes when you're [00:56:00] young, but if we tell the same thing to a woman in her eighties or early nineties, who doesn't have a lot of weight to lose.

It can be really dangerous, especially when we consider that the weight loss is ultimately going to come off not just as fat, but muscle loss and bone loss. And if we change or go off of that and regain the weight, is it for anybody, the preferential weight gain, regain, it's primarily and, and, and fat. You don't regain the muscle.

You don't regain the bone without doing something to intervene to both protect those and then rebuild them. And so when we're talking about this is that it can be really. Tempting to follow a well known biohacker in there that's a tech bro in their thirties or forties who has like the solution according to them.

Um, but again, it's, it's being very careful to look through the pitch to the person and to think about how this might [00:57:00] impact your own health. Like, where am I on the spectrum? Will the benefit to me outweigh the risk? What am I willing to give up to have this thing or to maybe feel this way and what am I willing to put in place to ensure that I can monitor any effects, side effects that may occur?

Um, you know, I told you earlier when we started this thing about having hypoglycemia and that I had followed all of the nutrition rules. that I had at my disposal. That I was educated, I knew a lot, I had a coach, and I was carb loading and doing all the things that was built on male biology. Without realizing that how women metabolize and use fats is fundamentally different.

And so, you know, that it took me going to the ER to have somebody point this out to me, duh. And then I started doing, like, that was my undergraduate work, as most of my undergraduate work at University of Colorado Boulder, um, is that I spent a lot of time looking at sex differences. And sort of, [00:58:00] and nutrient um, and, and nutrient sensing and also nutrient use for endurance exercise.

And so I learned a lot through that. But this is like, one of those things is that especially as we get older and the, the difference between people becomes greater and greater because it's both our genetics and our environment and as we compound the environment by years and days and exposures, we get broader and broader differences between people.

So I think invariably any solution that we're going to find is going to be the one that actually just it works for us and that it's I think the real solution is going to be in unlocking how to figure out what therapeutic, what lifestyle intervention, what sleep pattern coupled with a therapy or a drug or whatever to rebalance is going to be better for that person at the right time and the right place.

And so it's a matching and a personalization that I think will be more important for aging than it ever is in children or young adults, even though, again, it's reframing. [00:59:00] Sure. 

Kush: Yeah, I should not be shocked at what you just shared given that, uh, just the way our society has evolved, not in always the fairest of ways.

And maybe this is, An incidental bonus of having this global prize because I'm sensing that even the, uh, the test populations that will be selected will also be, will also cross spectrum. I mean, not just gender, but also, you know, ethnic backgrounds, right? So different ethnicities. Yeah. 

Jamie: So important. It's so important.

And also traditionally like what people are willing to do. It's um, you know, so again, some of my favorite teams, we have teams coming in from India and that's fabulous is that we have really, again, biomedical, really strong science. And then we have some that are coming in saying, we want to show that our traditional practices work is that we're going to do community health based, um, you know, If we're going to do meditation [01:00:00] and yoga and diet and, you know, just, we want to show that this works fabulous and that they're going to do this in communities that are going to be willing to uptake and to do.

And for them, again, that benefits going to outweigh the risk. I would love to see it. And maybe that impacts the effects. Maybe there's other genetic components. Um, you know, I was reading a study and talking to a group the other day that was doing like vaccine studies and vaccine response, which again, as we get older, our response to vaccines, it changes.

We're not as responsive. Our immune system isn't as malleable. Um, and so we don't respond to threats. And we also don't respond to vaccines quite as well as we used to. Um, and so, but again, there's also a huge genetic component. There's a group of children, I just just read this study. Somebody brought it up to me the other day.

That it's not just age based because there's huge, huge genetic inheritability components. There's a group of children in Budapest. I think it was Budapest that, um, that they respond to vaccines much like a Western 75 or 80 year old [01:01:00] does in the U. S. They just, they don't mount the response. And so again, if you're looking at things that impact the immune system, impact how we help our health, impact our function, there are so many different layers on top of that, that yes, there are going to be some genetic differences.

There are going to be some differences by society and what people are willing to do and how they perceive that benefit. Um, there are going to be differences in the sort of the subtle characteristics or the populations that some of these are tested in. And, you know, we could either go through all of this work to try to control things, which is a typical way that we run clinical trials, is you control everything to death.

Or, you know, I finally, for the first time in my scientific career, have the opportunity to open the doors. Thank you very much. Of just say, no, we want it to be global. No, we want it to be a little bit messy. We want populations from everywhere to come in. And we're not going to control it to death because I think we're missing out on [01:02:00] huge, huge amounts of data.

Um, that could be informing much better personalized decisions. 

Kush: Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, yeah, absolutely. No, I'm still, I'm still, uh, absorbing everything you said. Let's shift this, uh, conversation a little bit, a little bit about, uh, uh, what, uh, some of us can start maybe doing a bit more, uh, immediately as we wait for the competition to unfold.

So, uh, I'm going to pick maybe one or two topics, right? Right. And then let's take, let's take that to wherever those go. So nutrition is so important, right? We've spoken about that a little bit. somebody like you, okay. So you have a physically demanding lifestyle, right? And then, um, Um, what do you see again, the rule of, let's say, food quality, 

Jamie: what 

Kush: you 

Jamie: consume, versus 

Kush: let's say dietary [01:03:00] trends, you know, 

Jamie: so let's 

Kush: have you talk about that.

Jamie: Yeah, great. Food quality is it. One of my favorite studies. Okay, this is great, great, great, great, great. I've been talking a lot about caloric restriction, right, as being sort of this gold standard in the field that people use for life extension. They reproduce this in monkeys. Right. First study in monkeys, you found that this again, reducing calories, you had this major effect, um, versus those that didn't.

They tried to reproduce this at the National Institute on Aging. So, um, uh, again, one of our federally funded groups and they didn't find it. Is that they found that reducing the calories had no lifespan extension benefit or health extension benefits compared to the control diet. And so when they started breaking this apart to try to figure out why this study different from this study in such dramatic ways, that federal NIA colony.

They basically had like the whole foods diet, right? So they were eating at the farmer's market every day. They had the highest quality ingredients, the best quality foods. And so it became less about the [01:04:00] quantity of food or the amount that they were restricted. They were both in pretty good health. And so that diet quality ends up being crucial.

versus this other colony that showed these huge differences where they're ad libbed, that's what we call them, and you can eat anything you want. You know, they're going to the, they're going to the golden corral buffet every day, eating really low quality food and as much of as they want. And so that control group using that sort of what we call either a fast food or a Western based diet, Then you see these huge effects of introducing sort of a diet restriction.

And again, you wonder, is it the diet restriction itself or is it they're not eating all of that junk? So, you know, so that's one way that we can study it in a very controlled way and monkeys. And that's what we found with them. They're very close to us biologically, but they are not small humans. Um, and so we have to look sort of at the population literature to try to see this and that we can also get trends from many other studies that have been run, whether they're in children, middle, older adults.

Um, and so yeah, so diet quality being [01:05:00] central, that's huge. And the timing at which we take and do things, this is another really, really big one. Um, so food clocking has become really important. Um, so this is as, or perhaps more important than the quantity of food. right? And so it's just the timing at which we eat.

Um, you know, do we eat all day? Do we eat small bits, intermittent fasting? Um, you know, or do we eat more in the morning and less at night? And that I think that there's some individual variation in how that works. So I am not a great, uh, intermittent faster. I'm not fabulous at it, but if I'm going to eat, I do really good when I eat in the mornings, midday, sort of that breakfast of kings, lunch of a prince, dinner as a pauper kind of model works really well for my body.

My husband, he can intermittent fast. It doesn't affect him. But I have hypoglycemia. That's never going to work for me. I get hangry and awful to live with and no one wants to be around me when I fast and I get [01:06:00] confused on goals and my performance goes down. So you find what works for you. But again, at least in my experience and in the scientific experience.

Quality is important. Timing is critically important. Um, and our circadian rhythms are hugely important. And it's one of those neglected areas. Um, I have, uh, a friend and a scientist who I respect immensely named Sachi Panda, who lives in, um, uh, he's in San Diego, and he does a lot of work on circadian rhythm and how it impacts Our aging and our diet and our lifestyle and health.

And um, you know, it can be really simple things that hospitals can do, like, um, babies in nicu. If you just change the timing at which they are exposed to light and that they're fed to do it on restricted schedules. It sort of fallow more natural patterning rather than have lights on 24 hours and 24 hour feeding, they come out of NICU days or weeks earlier.[01:07:00] 

You put people in intensive care and hospital settings, you do the same thing, right, is that if you leave them in rooms as they are normally, right, lights all the time, feeding tubes in place, constant drip, if you change that and you just follow sort of the natural rhythm of light patterning and food patterning.

You have easier admissions and fewer, you know, you have people leave the hospital sooner and are less likely to be readmitted. And so again, it's these tiny, simple, simple things that I think may end up being hugely important that maybe we medicate around them when there might be very simple things we could and should be doing that are just part of our biology.

I mean, we evolved here, you know, let 

Kush: me ask, uh, you know, uh, we've , touched on. Intermittent fasting and caloric restriction a little bit. As you know, a lot of the people listening to this podcast are everyday athletes, right? And people are already [01:08:00] somewhat more careful than the general population.

I want to understand this bit, which is Intermittent fasting again, or just, sorry, just using these terms interchangeably, yeah, uh, reducing calories and doing time bound eating, that has shown in studies to extend the lifespan of other, uh, yeah, of other organisms, mice, monkeys, whatnot, but does that also increase

And I asked this because, because I noticed this something in myself, right? So I became vegetarian a few years ago for, for, um, ethical reasons. And I suddenly, you know, a big part of my diet, you know, just went away. Right. And so it's been a bit of a struggle. trying to get all the, all the components of a good diet.

And [01:09:00] actually went and saw a dietician recently, which I recommend to a lot of people because I learned some, like, I had some facepalm moments because I realized I was not consuming, let's say enough protein because I was, so I'm just curious. So, We're all different, right? But if you are pursuing current, let's say performance or health goals, then should we not be a bit more nuanced with our approach, right?

So maybe it works for some people, but if you're trying to you know, You know, maybe, uh, run a hundred, train for like this, this big race or climb at this grade. Should we not try to tailor our lifestyle and diet around those goals? 

Jamie: Oh, I agree completely. And finding a coach and a support system that helps you do it.

100%. I'm a huge fan of coaching and, you know, and, and in getting support, whether it's, you know, I have a woman who actually is, um, a major role model and support for me and, and, and [01:10:00] meditation and, and practice, you know, is that having those people who help again, find a solution that works for you. Or in some cases, you know, I just need someone to hold my hand and walk me home.

Is that I have a hard time seeing behaviors or patterns in my life, but somebody else can see them fairly clearly and, um, and having support is great. So that's one thing that I heard you say that I want to double down on, um, and then two is, um, another aspect of whether or not something quote unquote works.

We're social animals. Humans are social. It's what we do. And so to add one more layer of nuance is that, um, there are pressures and stressors of no longer fitting into your social group. And that, I think that affects people quite a lot, especially with caloric restriction, or diets, or switch sort of patterning, um, or again, going from a meat based diet to a vegetarian one.

Maybe you're not going to the same restaurants with your friends or know what to order anymore. Um, [01:11:00] There have actually been studies. There's an investigator named David Allison who's done a lot of this work, some of the most fascinating stuff. So what he has shown over and over again is all these life span and health span benefits of some of these eating patterns and other things is that they're socially motivated.

And so if you take a group of mice who are fed and you put them next to the group of mice who are not fed, um, is that, uh, a lot of those benefits of these mice that are not fed. typically is that if they're exposed and they're watching animals that are eating is that you can abolish a lot of the physical benefits of doing the thing.

And so there's another social component to this and that's replicated in flies. They see it in monkeys. You can see it in mice. And I would not be surprised scaling it up to humans, right? And so even when we're thinking about nuances, that it's not just our personal choices, but also making sure that we have both support and acceptance from those around us.

So there is a social [01:12:00] combination, um, is that, you know, yeah, again, humans are social. This is why we live as long as we do. It's one of our major advantages is that if you look. across biology and across different species is that, um, there's a, there's a body mass and longevity balance. Typically big animals live a lot longer.

And so you can develop this thing called a longevity quotient. Um, and so like an elephant lives longer than a mouse kind of thing, and that there's a lot of sort of metabolic activity that happens between those. Humans are unusually long lived for our metabolic rate and our size. And that a lot of our advantage is likely in how we can evade predators.

You know, in our case, that's Public health measures and living in social groups. And so, of course, a lot of our other sort of health behaviors are attached to that social benefit. Um, and so, adding a little bit more nuance as we're thinking about biohacking ourselves. or things that we want to do to improve and [01:13:00] optimize our performance is also build in some of those social patterns and people around us or support structures to help us through it so that it can lower the stress of making a change.

And so again, that's, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a psychologist that is just from comparative biology and longevity. 

Kush: Certainly, Jamie as, yeah, as again, as an avid outdoor athlete yourself, uh, you were already, let's say you were already, uh, well informed about longevity. Yes. And then you joined XPRIZE recently.

So, uh, Is there anything you've started doing differently since you have, uh, had this new focus and applied that to your own lifestyle? 

Jamie: You know, I, um, honestly, I would say nothing good. [01:14:00] Since I've started this job, um, in this position, I travel a lot. And so if anything, I get anxiety because I know how bad all of those circadian shifts are for me and the challenges to environment and shifting so much is that it's, you know, getting up at three in the morning to do a zoom interview in Japan is, is, it's, it's taxing on the body and you know, regular international travel can also be, can be quite hard, um, on the, on, on the circadian rhythm as well.

So, um, Those are the practical challenges. Um, outside of that, have I made any major other challenges or changes? No, and I think, you know, that this is for me, one of the joys of, um, now being more stable and settled in my forties and that I hope it's something that continues for decades to come is I went into this global role sort of already knowing [01:15:00] who I am making peace with a lot of my demons.

And, um, maybe not even making peace, making friends, you know, of the things that make me tick, the things that go well, the things that don't, whether that's diet, exercise, mood, meditation, like all of those things. and so no, I mean, I, I get the opportunity to just sort of live in a world of excitement and adventure.

Like what a thrill. It's, it's all new and it's all different and, um, if I just sort of keep looking for the opportunity in each day, then it keeps revealing itself. And that's, that's, I mean, that's the gift of the practice, right? 

Kush: Sure, sure. You spoke about, uh, having a daily, practice. Can you talk for a second about what is it that you're doing?

And again, what are its, uh, implications on, uh, on your longevity? 

Jamie: Yeah. Um, so the implications, oh goodness. So for me, it is, again, it's a daily practice. Goodness knows not quality. [01:16:00] Sometimes if I can only sit for five minutes, I just take five minutes. Um, and have, um, have, fortunately, there's a woman here, uh, that since I've moved here, she's become a wonderful sort of mentor and coach for me in this that she's been doing, uh, you know, she's a, a, a practicing, uh, Buddhist monk and body worker and others, and she's in her, um, I adore her, she's in her late eighties, and, um, she's like, I've just adopted her, some people you do this, you just meet them in your lives, and, um, and she's great, and she's become really excellent for me, and, and, um, For me, the practice of meditation.

It's usually in the morning. Um, I need consistent coaching to build it in throughout the day to take more breaks and to take more time to pause and to notice and just be where I'm at. Um, and that most of it is really just that is just focusing on the breath work, sitting, resting, Letting my brain run because sometimes it does and trying to sit in it and not get up and make the to do list just let the to do list go and, um, and that it's, that's been really good for me throughout [01:17:00] my life and throughout my running, um, in particular has been, uh, A really big part of it is that just sort of that right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot is that that becomes it's a soporific right is that it's it slows things down and that sometimes I'll go out and I'll run until I allows me to think and then I'll run until I don't think anymore.

You know, is that there just has to sort of just get to this spot. And so for me, it's kind of all fused. And any of the time that I spend outdoors or even in meditation, it's that it's, um, again, it's a practice of being where I'm at. But more than that is that I found that in my life, I need lots of opportunities to remember how small and how young I am.

Is that I don't need all of the answers and that when I'm outside whether it's moving or in meditation or just being Um is that those are the moments that I grasp is that's a [01:18:00] perspective shift for me Is that I don't need all the answers. I don't have to have this all figured out I just remember that it's tiny tiny moments and um, i'm just part of the adventure.

Kush: Absolutely Uh, maybe a couple of clothing questions If there's one You Mindset shift, you hope people will make when they think about aging, what would it be? 

Jamie: Hold on to hope, you know, is that it's not an inevitable decline or march or darkness, is that it's the greatest opportunity we have, you know, the ability to see more springs and to feel more things.

You know, I, I look at my mother who's in her mid seventies and she's a firecracker. I mean, she's only started letting herself really live in the last 10, 15 years. Um, I was telling, uh, Kushy, I [01:19:00] see your great van behind you, you know, during early in pandemic, she sold, um, everything and put stuff in a storage unit and, um, bought a van and, She now works half the year in Alaska and spends the other half in Colorado and she drives her van.

She had to get it retrofitted by, uh, some friends of ours in Boulder so that it holds her kayak and her skis. And, you know, just sort of living and doing the things and that, you know, when I think about where I want. My decades to go. Yeah, that it's just going out and fully, fully living, you know, I think that's the ultimate goal right is want to live every day.

I'm alive. 

Kush: Yeah. 

Jamie: And I don't want to waste any of that anymore. Just spending sort of obsessively worrying over things and, um, not taking advantage of being out and, you know, trying to do something small, something better today than yesterday. Um, yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest [01:20:00] one. And, um, and you know, and goals and loss and love and all of those things is, you know, have also had in the last five years, you know, some really big losses in life.

And I think that more than job and science and the rest of it, those have probably been the bigger shifts. So some of those on the program that you've had on and others have known, um, our, our lives fairly well. So my husband, Mike Pont, was, uh, was a famous climber for a long time. We lived in Boulder. When I met Mike, I met him at an adventure race.

Um, gosh, back in the early two thousands, we met at beast of the east. Um, and, um, you know, when I met him, he had a four year old son just turning five named Jasper and, you know, life sometimes kicked you in the face. You know, love that boy so much and had the great opportunity to be, um, part of his life and, um, you know, in 2019 he died of a drug overdose is that, you know, [01:21:00] it's so easy to take.

The people and the things around us for granted. And, um, you know, so coming into this prize, yeah, I have this professional life. I have all these things, but, they don't fundamentally change me as a human. It's those bigger, harder truths in this much smaller, smaller moments. Those are the things that change.

Kush: Thanks for sharing that. And I, I sense that another, The place that you are speaking of is also the role of spirituality and community and maybe even having a mission in one's life because I think, yeah, I mean, we are reeling from all kinds of afflictions, you know, today in the modern world, mental health is huge.

And of course, those are the, of course, you also have all the other, uh, medical issues [01:22:00] going on, but I, I do sense that there is this piece that is missing today, which is the role of all of these things that, uh, um, have a greater role to play in keeping us Alive, healthy, joyful for, for that much longer. I want to ask you where can people go to continue following the competition?

Right. Before you tell us that, before you tell us that you should tell us if your mom has a social media presence, because I am personally excited to see what she is. I 

Jamie: wish she did. Actually, maybe we'll, maybe we'll, we'll jump on that this winter is maybe we'll try to get her one because, um, she's a whole lot of fun to follow.

Um, but I wish she was on social media more than the occasional post or, or, um, giving a love or a like to her, her, um, to her [01:23:00] grandkids. So, um, but her name is Sharon justice and she's outstanding. Um, and, and she'd also say my father's pretty remarkable as well, even though he might not be living in a van and touring Alaska.

Um, he's, he's, you know, again, I've had, I've had the great benefit of incredible parents. That's, uh, that's the biggest lottery I won, um, and, and my kids, so it's great. But yeah, so mom's there, uh, I wish she did. Maybe we'll get something set up because I'd like to follow her as well. But, uh, people who want to follow the prize.

Yeah. If you want to follow along again, we're bringing the public with us. And so we have newsletters, we have, um, you know, journeys to follow. Um, there are huge team stories coming out of this that are going to be really exciting. There's a documentary in the works. Um, and so you can find the prize online.

It's like, um, XPRIZE. org backslash health span, H E A L T H span, S P A N, all one word [01:24:00] health span. Um, and again, that's XPRIZE. org. Backslash health span. Um, and then, you know, we're all over social media, everything for, for the prize, the competitors and others. Our biggest announcement is going to come next May in New York City.

We'll be announcing our top 40 teams. And so for those who are science buffs and junkies and really want to just see sort of what's at the cutting edge, um, but also has practical use. Um, that would be a great chance to follow, um, is that we'll be, um, airing those, introducing the teams to the world, and, uh, and it'll be a really great chance.

Um, outside of that, you know, travel, do lots of meetings, run all the races, do all the miles. Um, and so for anybody who's, uh, out and about, maybe we'll, um, maybe I'll see you in the wilds. Um, I'll probably be the one belaying my 15 year old son in rifle. Right now, it's a little chilly for rifles, so we've been bouldering and climbing in Unaweap Canyon.

Um, might see us on the slopes in Colorado, [01:25:00] um, and, uh, have some races and fun things coming up. So, um, if anybody's interested in a run, um, give a call. 

Kush: Amazing. Well, I will certainly be, uh, cheering on both, uh, you know, both. And the work that you're doing, but also, also you and, your journeys as an athlete and as, uh, as a, uh, I guess as the matriarch of a, of an athletic family, because I think there's some lessons there.

there as well. Jamie, so good to have you on the chat today. 

Jamie: Of course. Thank you, Kush. This was a great opportunity. Again, I was delighted to be asked to be on my favorite show. So it is incredible. Yeah. And if anybody wants to get involved again, reach out express. org backslash healthspan. You can find me or anyone in my team there.