#68 Jerry Moffatt’s Revelations: Dangerous Free Soloing Before It Was Cool, The Power of Obsession, Letting Go at Your Peak, and His Surprising Key to Success

Ageless Athlete - Jerry Moffatt
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[00:00:00] 

Jerry: Ugh.

Kush: Jerry, tell us, where are you and what did you have for breakfast this morning?

Jerry: Hi there, um, yeah, for my breakfast I always have the same thing, I have, uh, two eggs on toast. So I have some granary toast, I get some nice free range eggs from a farm which I go past, I cook them in butter, I sprinkle a bit of harissa on there, fry them up, flip them quickly, put marmite on my toast, chuck the eggs on, add a bit of ketchup on the side, and that's been my breakfast for the last, uh, years at least.

Always have the same. 

Kush: eggs and toast is such a universal breakfast. I live in the US now, but I, I eat eggs and toast often here. I also ate eggs and toast growing up in Delhi in India. And

Jerry: right.

Kush: what makes it, , uh, unique is, uh, the way you jazz it. the way you add your [00:01:00] own flavor and the Harissa spice.

Jerry: harissa, of Marmite and ketchup, so I layer the flavors and build it up into a beautiful breakfast.

Kush: That sounds, yeah, no, the Jerry, uh, variation on eggs and toast sounds very appealing.

Jerry: Oh,

Kush: And, uh, I was thinking that, uh, because you eat you eat the same breakfast every day, and I think you seem to have a very consistent diet practice. And to me, It feels like there's a grander theme or effort to minimize the variables in your life.

So you can really fine tune

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: performance and all kinds of things.

Jerry: I know if I have a good day or a bad day, it's nothing to do with my breakfast, because my breakfast is always the same. So I know it ain't gonna be that, and I know I'm not gonna climb well or perform good or bad or anything, so I just have the same breakfast. So that's it, it just takes it out of the equation. 

Kush: [00:02:00] There's a lesson here from your breakfast. Jerry, for those of us who may not know you as well, can you tell us who are you and what do you do?

Jerry: Yeah, so, I'm, uh, I was one of the first professional climbers in the world. I started in 1978, when I was at school. Uh, then I left school in Uh, 1980, I became very obsessed with climbing. I climbed nearly every day or every day. and then very quickly from when I left school at 1718, I'd done all the hardest routes in Britain. Pretty much. Then when I was 19, I went to America and I repeated all the hardest routes, except for Yosemite because I didn't go there, but in Joshua Tree, Colorado, what were thought to be the hardest routes in the world, and I did the second ascent. Of a lot [00:03:00] of those routes, and I onsited a route called Equinox, which is supposed to be one of the hardest routes in America. It taken, uh, the best climbers there three days to do it, and I just, I did it first go. So, was the start of my career. I think I was only just 20 then, and that time I was really doing the hardest stuff. 

Kush: And Jerry from that, uh, let's say that genre defining career and climbing. You went on to do a couple other things. Uh, tell us how old are you?

Jerry: I'm 60, now, 61 years

Kush: And sure, sure. That's a few decades of climbing and a bit more. And what are you up to these days?

Jerry: Um, I still own a climbing wall, so I'm involved in it a little bit. [00:04:00] Um, I, yeah, I'm, got properties, I've got businesses, so I'm, I'm busy. I'm busy doing stuff like that. I've got a couple of dogs, I've taken the dogs for a walk. Uh, I'm still quite involved in, in climbing, I watch, watch the stuff. I go, I climb, if I do climb, I climb on artificial walls. I go over to Austria, probably four times a year, and go to the Innsbruck Wall. So, I, uh, I see a lot of the, the top climbers still, I'm still quite involved in it.

Kush: sounds like you're probably climbing a bit less than your heyday.

Jerry: yeah. I, I, I stopped climbing when I was 40. in my mind, I don't climb anymore. So, when I was 40,

Kush: Okay,

Jerry: And that was the end of my professional career. And I, I'd reached a point where I'd achieved all the goals I wanted to achieve. I didn't really want, at 40 years old, it's quite hard to be a professional climber, to keep going to [00:05:00] your sponsors, will you sponsor me again, I'm going to do this, this and that, I've got some ideas for this. I didn't want to rely on other people for a, for a wage, so I wanted to make my own way, and make my own money, and not have to rely on other people to sponsor me. So I stopped when I was 40. I had two children. I got married and I wanted to focus on my marriage and my children and making my own money. And I wanted to do, I didn't want to have one, my only one life just as being a climber.

I wanted to be able to do other things. And when you're climbing, you, you just can't do anything else. You can't, because it's not Not good for your climbing, you know, to do a lot of other things. So I've always loved surfing, so I thought, you know, I'd like to go surfing and be free, and be able to do what I wanted to do.

So I packed it in, well, 21 ago.

Kush: Jerry, you, I mean, not only were your climbing accomplishments so, [00:06:00] um, ahead of its era, so unique in what you were able to achieve, the way you were able to push the standards, the grades. But I also sense an approach to climbing, which is. perhaps a little bit different than other climbers. And then maybe even other outer athletes.

I speak to many on the show and a lot of people talk about this, uh, lifelong love of the sport, where even if one is not able to continue climbing or surfing or running or what have you at a certain level. they want to keep doing it because of what they get out of that experience. You're, you planned your life very differently, where it seems like you pushed [00:07:00] really, really hard.

You achieved all your goals. And then when the time came, you literally, you know, took off your shoes and tossed them in a bucket and, and kind of said goodbye. And I get it. Like you are. in some ways a lifer. I mean, you love the sport, you continue doing some indoor climbing, you have business interests, but on a personal level, it sounds like you walked away.

And I'm curious, like,

Jerry: it's, it's, it's, it's a little bit, it's a little bit like being a professional footballer, playing for a top team, playing for your country, then you get to 35, and you're not in the premiership anymore, and you're not going to play for England ever again. Or, know, the Bundesliga, playing for Germany. You're right there. You, you're not gonna get a professional footballer who's played for by Munich in the Bonders League and played for Germany and won [00:08:00] the World Cup. Who's gonna be playing football when he's 45? It is not gonna happen. Where they're gonna play, they're not gonna play in a park, know, you know, you know, you might go

Kush: sure,

Jerry: and play till you're 40. So people always thinking, climbing. It's a little strange that you, you don't climb. After a certain point. I think it, for me, it's more the opposite. Why would I want to climb when I'm 45 not climb as good as I was? I want to be the best and I want to, I want to achieve new things. And from when I was 18, I was doing new routes in England that nobody else could do almost up till I was 40. I don't, there's no way. There's no way I want to just go out and plod along when I'm 50. I enjoy climbing, but I don't think of it as climbing as it was when I was climbing. If I go climbing now, I climb indoors or I might go outside, but I enjoy having a coffee and talking to my mates about climbing. I might talk about climbing for an hour before I climb, and then I might do a few easy climbs. [00:09:00] But I

Kush: sure.

Jerry: but I ain't so bothered about the climbing. But I'm really interested in climbing.

Kush: Yeah,

Jerry: I love to watch one of the top climbers do a route on rock? Absolutely. It'd be the highlight of my year. I've seen Adam Ondra and Migos climbing on rock. It doesn't do so much for me watching people on Climbing Artificial. But to see somebody do a, you know, state of the art route It's, it's, it's like somebody winning the 100 metres in the Olympics. It's a highlight and I love it. So I still love climbing, but do I want to train really hard and stretch every day and diet and stuff? Not, not at

Kush: sure.

Jerry: done that, that's a big part of my life that's, that's gone. But do I still love climbing? Yes, I do. And it's, you know, there's nothing, there's no sport I would rather watch more at the very highest level than climbing. So, you know, it still does a lot for me. 

Kush: agree wholeheartedly that, yeah, once you're [00:10:00] a climber, I feel most comfortable. You kind of stay a climber because you get these experiences out of it, whatever level you're climbing at. But I am fascinated by your, let's say, contrasting perspective on engagement with the sport. Because in many ways, I also agree that The returns on investment, they dwindle.

I'm 46 and what I could do, you know, like, like, uh, 10 years ago, even five years ago, it does not feel the same. It feels like there's just that much more. Yeah, there's just so much more work I have to put in to be able to just maintain that, forget exceeding that.

Jerry: yeah.

Kush: But anyway, uh, let's, uh, switch a little bit and maybe go back to your, uh, beginnings a little bit.

you discovered climbing Jerry, and for a long period of your life, you were completely dedicated. [00:11:00] May I even say obsessed to the point of, um, perfection. Can you think back to perhaps a moment or an experience where you found that climbing wasn't just something you did, but it was so fundamental to you.

It was such a core part of who you were.

Jerry: Yes, I mean, I can do because would say for in the, a period in my life 82, 83, where I was really interested in dangerous climbing. And if you said to me, what would you, what do you want to do in climbing? I would say, I want to do the most dangerous climb in the world. That's what I wanted to do. was free soloing a lot and doing a lot of hard routes without ropes uh, So I think if you're willing to put your life on the line, and I was, and if somebody said, You've got a real chance of dying on this route, then I'd say yes. This is what [00:12:00] my life's come to I'm willing to risk my life to do that because You get just so obsessed in a strange way.

It's not normal. It's not advised. It's not a clever thing to do, but for some reason, you mentally just become so obsessed and blinkered. It's a crazy thing to do, but that was a period of my life where You look back on it now and I think that was just bloody stupid. Why did you, why didn't you just, you know, concentrate on doing harder routes or routes with ropes and stuff or, you know, but that was, that was a part of my life where I look back on it and I think that was. Yes, I was obsessed. I'm an obsessive person. Most of the things I do, I get very obsessed. I'm a perfectionist. No, because crime is not about being perfect. It's got nothing to do with being perfect. It's about trying really, really bloody hard and really giving it everything. To do a lot of the climbs [00:13:00] you have to be obsessed and you have to be really, you just have to give it everything, you know, sometimes the climb goes perfect, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes you can just pull it out the back and, you know, it's, that's the beauty of climbing, you know, it's, it's a, it's a beautiful thing and, know,

Kush: Absolutely. No, it is, it is about,

Jerry: sometimes everything goes right and you don't do it, you know, that, that's climbing. 

Kush: Absolutely, it is about the best, best climber one can be.

Jerry: Yep.

Kush: one question I did want to bring up with you is you were pushing, pushing the limits of free soloing, right? You were doing some things that you now yourself think that might have been a bit too much, too extreme.

You've pushed the envelope on multiple occasions and you likely had, uh, uh, some close calls. I wanted to get your perspective on another free soloist of this generation. Thank you. [00:14:00] We're talking about Alex Honnold and I feel so many people opine on what makes Alex do the things he does. Is it his ability to conquer fear in a certain way?

Is it his, his mental wiring that is so different? Somebody who was kind of similar for your time, Jerry, can you share your perspective on what drives and allows Alex to accomplish what he does?

Jerry: I don't think Alex is doing anything different to what John Backer was doing, to what I was doing, or to what Alan Ribeiro was doing. It's just another person, and in 10 years time there'll be another person like him doing it, just the same. One of the big differences is that he televises the stuff that he does, so a lot of people see it. So if nobody sees it on television or a podcast or, or, or a YouTube thing, it's not known, is it? But if you put it on a

Kush: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks, Jerry.

Jerry: of you soloing a [00:15:00] big route, everybody's gonna go, Look at that! And thousands of people look at it. So the more people see it, and if it becomes mainstream and it becomes a film, of people look at it. And it seems incredible, but for me, you know, Peter Croft, John Backer, stuff I did, um, Robert in, in France soloed phenomenal things. Phenomenal. La Nuit de Lazard, 8a when he did that, it's sick. It was, it was way ahead of its game. Nothing in America was done that hard. Uh, know, we were soloing a lot harder than the stuff

Kush: Yeah,

Jerry: there for a long time. gets forgotten about because it wasn't filmed and it wasn't photographed. So if it ain't filmed and photographed it doesn't get the publicity. But he's doing the same. He's making a career out of it. But I personally don't think he's any different to what we were doing.

Kush: for sure. Let me ask you this question though. So, you know, [00:16:00] you and John Bakker, Alan Robert, Alan Rober, and, um,

Jerry: Peter Croft.

Kush: Peter Croft, of course. And, and yeah,

Jerry: It was ridiculous what he did. What a great guy.

Kush: yeah,

Jerry: publicity, he just wandered off. You know, he'd just go, what have you done today? Oh, I've done the rostrum. It just, I love that. I love doing it and no publicity. You don't tell anybody, you just go do it. I think, I think for

Kush: yeah,

Jerry: is, that is the essence of it, you know. Then you can't

Kush: yeah.

Jerry: he did it for a photograph to get on the cover of a magazine or something like that. He didn't want any publicity, just went out there and did it. For me, a hero what he did. Brilliant. 

Kush: There have been some interesting, um, discussions between Honnold and Croft on their approaches and it's kind of fascinating to hear them, hear two legends speak about that.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: But let me ask you this. So, Again, you know, in some ways, climbing is still not a mainstream sport. It's not like football or tennis and within the world of [00:17:00] climbing, free soloing is that much more niche.

and, I've done a tiny bit of free soloing. I, I came, I did really easy stuff. I'm talking about like five fives, five sixes, you know, way well below my, um, long roots in the alpine. Um, Please help us understand what is it about you and let's say you're this larger band of brothers in a way.

What, what made you push yourself in free souling? What did you get out of?

Jerry: think one of the things I should say is how climbing has changed. So, back in the early 80s and the late 70s, climbing was a dangerous sport. It was just dangerous. I didn't clip a bolt for the first, uh, first two years I went climbing. I never clipped a bolt. Everything was runners. was thought to be a dangerous sport and it was dangerous.[00:18:00] 

So climbing without a rope was just that little bit. More extreme, everything, every time you climbed, you were looking at taking big falls and it was scary. I think as time's evolved, one of the biggest changes that I've seen in climbing is that it is now not longer, it's no longer considered a dangerous sport. It's just not dangerous and it's almost unacceptable for it to be dangerous. And the thought of people climbing up to the first bolt and hitting the ground from 10 foot, people don't do it anymore. They stick clip. They get a big stick and they clip it. Well, in my day, that was cheating. You couldn't do that.

And. somebody said to you, but I don't want to fall and hit the ground where you said, well, that's that's climbing fall and he hit the ground. It's the same for everybody So I think now there's just it's just not not an acceptance of there being any danger I'm not against that. I think that's fantastic.

I think that's really good I wouldn't want my children to go [00:19:00] out and do dangerous climbs and it's more mainstream It's just that the attitude has changed. I'm not saying it's worse, I'm just saying it's different. I like the attitude now, and it's great that it's a safe sport. No need, no need to go out and risk your life and limb say you're a climber. So, I'm not saying it's one better than the other, but the thing has really, really, it's really changed, and it's not, not acceptable for, for nearly any sports to be dangerous now. And then all sports are safe, aren't they? Or a lot safer. Even Formula 1, you know, when I used to watch it, you know, would occasionally get killed in Formula 1.

Now it's become really safe and if there's anything they

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: safer, they'll make it safer. So

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: things that's changed. The whole

Kush: Yeah. No, I,

Jerry: is different.

Kush: absolutely. And I think maybe back then the lines were, not so distinct. They were more blurred between what was rope climbing, what was bouldering, what was free soloing, like so much of [00:20:00] the stuff you were doing, even if it was not free soloing, it was sparsely protected,

Jerry: Yes.

Kush: even if you were tied onto a rope, you know, one mistake or one rock crumble

Jerry: Yeah,

Kush: have,

Jerry: I would do a solo, and it might be the hardest solo that had ever been done in Britain, it wouldn't even get written up in the magazines. was said. It would have no publicity.

Kush: Yeah. Right.

Jerry: and it was the hardest Boulder problem in the world, it wouldn't even have any publicity. Nothing, because it, it, it was never publicized. It, it just wasn't, it was only climbing with ropes, and that was it. there was no

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: on soloing, no publicity on bouldering. in the very first competitions, English magazines wouldn't publish competition results. I won some big competitions in France, and because the English climbers thought, Oh, competitions are not real [00:21:00] climbing, they didn't publicize anything. So you had nothing. So you might win a massive competition. It would be in all the French magazines, but the English magazines wouldn't report it. So the whole thing's become very much more, I don't know, they publicize everything now, don't they? But

Kush: It's funny. They, uh,

Jerry: climate's changed so much, it's ridiculous.

Kush: it is. What's funny is they publicize everything because the greater world seems to be quite intrigued by climbing, but they still get so many things wrong about the sport.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: It's kind of comical on the outside.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: Um, uh, Jerry, uh, switching. Um, so I, you I started climbing a bit over two decades ago and of course I devoured all the climbing literature that I could find.

I loved your book.

Jerry: Oh,

Kush: I just, yeah, I loved your book. I read it about a dozen years ago and, uh, it [00:22:00] transported me to those days. Growing up in Sheffield or learning how to climb in that

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: And, uh, the, the story writing, all of that, you know, kudos to obviously to everything you brought, but maybe also to others who helped you.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: put out this, um, this tome together. And we don't have enough time to get into so many of your, uh, memorable stories from that time. But one thing I thought I would ask you is you named a book revelations

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: after one of your iconic routes.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: Can you tell us why And if, if indeed the book was somewhat connected to that climb, can you tell us what was about that climb that was so important

Jerry: Well,

Kush: and,

Jerry: it's

Kush: and maybe, yeah, 

Jerry: it's a funny thing. When

Kush: go ahead.

Jerry: a [00:23:00] book, you say you name it that. I can't even remember it, Revelations. The publishers say, let's call it Revelations, and you go, okay, let's call it Revelations. I, it's in, I think it's in five of the different languages. They had, it's, uh, I think one of the foreign languages said, we're going to call this book this. I'm like, I don't like that name. And they're like, too late, we've called it that. They called it Cragrat or something. But it's quite funny. So you really don't have any, you don't have a big say. Uh, Revelations was a big thing for me. I think it was the first, well it's given AB now. If it's AB, it was the first AB done in the world. Um, in 83 or something like that. And I call it Revelations because Revelations is the first chapter of the Bible and it's the new beginning. So it's the, that was the whole point. It was the new beginning. Revelations is a new start. that's why I called it Revelations. somebody else would have come up with the name. I [00:24:00] hardly, you know, somebody nearly always went with my room name. Somebody said, why don't you call it Revelations? I'm like, why? Well, because it's the new beginning. Okay, we'll call it Revelations. So I don't, I think somebody else came up with the name.

Kush: You know, what's funny is, um, I interviewed Thomas Huber on the podcast, uh, sometime back,

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: and I was asking, asking him about the naming of his book as well. It's called, um, uh, yeah, anyway. So I thought that the name had a deeper meaning and he just pointed right back to the publisher again and said that the

Jerry: Yeah,

Kush: up

Jerry: she

Kush: the book.

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kush: Um, um, um, anyway, okay. So, so, so the book is amazing. I.

Jerry: you. Yeah.

Kush: recommend the book to climbers and also to anybody who's simply intrigued and fascinated about not just climbing as a sport, but about this journey that you and others in your, in [00:25:00] your circle undertook

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah.

Kush: and the, and the love of the sport and the lifestyle that you embraced to be able to pursue a your love to its apex.

And I think, I think that story is in, yeah, it's, it's, it's in so many ways, um, transcends the sport. And again, yeah, we'll put links on the show notes so people can go check

Jerry: you.

Kush: the,

Jerry: I should say when we when we wrote the book, I wanted it to be to document the history of my time and my generation. So, you know, you don't make money out of doing a book, but I wanted to do it for my children. And I thought, let's document this time and tell people how it was because it will be forgotten if it's not in a book. And I wanted it to inspire people. And I wanted it to be fun. So I wanted it to be [00:26:00] inspiring more, and to document the time and the history and stuff like that. And it's, it's still the publisher's best selling book. So it, it's done, it's done very well. But it's, it's truthful, um, it's, It just, it just tells the history and hopefully it puts over the fun. I mean, I've often said to some of the professional climbers when I see them, I'm like, you know what? You are living the life now, don't you? You are having the best time. It doesn't get better. Because what you're

Kush: sure.

Jerry: It's a, it's an absolute bloody dream and people going about sacrifices in sport.

There is no sacrifice because I don't believe there's a better job than being a professional climber, traveling around the world climbing. You know, if you love climbing. If you don't love climbing, it's not a very good job. But if you love climbing, oh, you're in there. It's, it's an absolute dream. wonderful

Kush: And, and I will go on to say that there is no sacrifice. It is the best life. Even if whether you are a [00:27:00] professional climber traveling the world, putting up FAs and, and, and new grades, or even if you're an everyday

Jerry: It's

Kush: you know, getting out in the weekends. Yeah.

Jerry: I enjoy climbing more than than thousands of other climbers. Thousands more. I didn't enjoy it anymore. I enjoyed it 100 percent, but there's loads of other climbers who enjoy it 100 percent. So I can't say I got more about it than other people. Just because you're doing the hard routes doesn't mean you're having, you know, the most fun.

Are you talking

Kush: Jerry, I love that point about each of us can, can just have so much fun irrespective of again, those grades. Can you talk about that a little bit more though?

Yeah, talking about how this medium allows us to explore so many dimensions, you know, starting with obviously the beautiful outdoors, but also allows us to perhaps [00:28:00] understand who we are

Jerry: yeah,

Kush: what we are capable of, and maybe even fight back against some limiting beliefs

Jerry: yeah. Well,

Kush: and go on and achieve

Jerry: yeah, yeah. For me, climbing's always about being fun. it's Not so much in competitions because it's a different environment, but when you're out on the crag and you're trying to do on sites or first descents and stuff when, when, when you're, when you're tying the rope that's when you get serious and you're stressed, but all before that, you know, it's, it's a lot of mucking around and laughing and stuff and One of my best friends were on calc Uh, in America, I climbed a lot with him and we had such a laugh and with Kurt, Albert, Wolfgang, all those people, you have a real laugh, but then you tie on the rope and you go, right, now you switch off and you're in the zone and you, you, you, you get serious, but it doesn't mean you walk around and you're serious the whole time and you have, you have good, good [00:29:00] mornings and, you know, good evening and out for a nice meal and the whole thing is good fun, but then when you tie the rope on, I'm serious when I get into the climb, but it doesn't mean your whole life's serious.

The whole thing of it is just fun, traveling, hanging out with people, uh, when I look back on my career the climbs that I did, I think about not so much the climbs, but the period around the climb. The times when you were, you're building up trying to do it, working it, thinking about it, having a laugh, where you were hanging out, going out for the meals, going to the bars, women, all that stuff.

That's what, that's what you like, and then you think, oh yeah, the

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: that is that I did a really hard, good, new route, or repeated something. 

Kush: I can't agree more. Like the, the sense, you know, the sense and the red points or yeah, the feats are important, but they will not be what they are. If they were not all [00:30:00] these other layers

Jerry: Yes.

Kush: enrich,

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: that enrich them. When you think back to, who all those decades of traveling the world, you know, uh, discovering all these things, places, Yosemite, like we said, uh, or just the U S and, you know, France.

And of course, Germany and the UK, um, any standout memories or, or stories from those trips, 

think back with like awe. And even like laughter. 

~Yeah. Sorry. I was saying that, uh, your travels took you to some incredible places as you were chasing some of the world's hardest climbs. And, uh, curious if, if you could share maybe one or two standout memories when you look back on those trips. You know, with both a sense of accomplishment, but also with awe and laughter and all the fun you had.
~ 

Jerry: I think one of the funnest trips I had was when I went to 83. Wolfgang Gullit was kind enough to give me a lift over. of us jumped into this small golf and drove through the night to the Fankenjura. then I had, think it was two weeks of the most incredible climbing. The weather was [00:31:00] perfect, the trees were just turning, it was autumn, there was apples on the trees, um, at that time I had no car, so when I was in England I was hitchhiking to the cliff, they had a car, so I got a lift to the crag. That was amazing in itself. I had a house to stay in. I wasn't sleeping

Kush: Sure. Ha ha ha.

Jerry: I had a house, I had a car, I got driven around. Nearly every day they'd take me to some crime which had not been done, so I was doing new routes, repeating stuff. That, that was a real dream time, and Wolfgang, uh, Gudik and Kurt Albert were so generous with their time. they didn't mind me doing new routes, so. that was just, it was just a fantastic time, exciting. back in those days, I, I don't think, in, I think I was in two or three weeks, I don't think I ever saw another climber on the cliff. back then, no, nobody else climbed, so you'd have the whole crag to yourself.

If there was somebody else there, it was like, oh, hi, like [00:32:00] that. Now there's people everywhere, you know, but if you saw somebody on the crag there, you'd go up and you'd have a chat, go away from what you're up to. But I don't even remember seeing any other climbers.

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: and

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: had a magical time with Ben Mu, uh, we hitched like down to the south of France, uh, down to Bukes, and again, we had the first two weeks in Bukes, we never saw another climber. We had the whole cliff to ourselves, um, that's, that's what it was like back then. So crags were empty, and it was, you know, a beautiful time, lots of fun, you know, having a good laugh and everything in it, you know, everything was new. 

Kush: you've had these lifelong, um, uh, partners and friendships, uh, with people like Ben and others. And, uh, these were strong bonds, but then sometimes also people with whom you competed fiercely, maybe going after the same thing sometimes. At the same time, these [00:33:00] partnerships perhaps also brought out the best in you.

Can you think of a couple of those, instances where some of your climbing partners, again, who you were in some ways competing with also pushed you and influenced perhaps your greater journey as an athlete.

Jerry: Yeah, I mean, I would say I always got, I never didn't get, I got on with every single climber, so even if I was in a competition with them, I never had any enemies in climbing, it was always very friendly and respectful, um, did other climbers push me? I mean, I was pretty self motivated. You know, if I was on a climb and somebody shouted up, Come on, you can do it, nothing they could say would make me climb harder and pull harder than I'm trying to pull already. I, nothing any other climber could do could make me try harder than I am. said that, [00:34:00] I was trying a boulder problem with somebody else, And they nearly did it before I did it, then I would just pull a little bit out. Something, I don't know what happens, but you think, oh my God, he's going to do it before me. And I've had that plenty of times where you just, you just it out the bag. I'm going to say, if anything was my forte, I'd say it was pulling it out the bag. You know, you shouldn't really do it. And then right at the end of the day, you think, Oh my God, you know, I might be leaving. I've got to go back to England tomorrow.

This is my last day. I've got to do it. I've got to do it then. Or you might be just not so much on roots because when you do new roots, they're your roots. But certainly when you're bouldering. And, you're close to doing something, I can think of times where I've not done that well on problems, I've shown it to somebody, they've done quite well, and I've thought, oh my god, they're gonna beat me. And then, and then you just, you just give it, you find something, don't you? And you get a little bit more. But it was always a good

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: competition. I never had any, there was never [00:35:00] a bad word in the climbing comps. You know, everybody got on with each other, but of course, you wanted to beat them and they wanted to beat you fiercely, which is, which is great.

It's not a bad thing, is it?

Kush: I love what you said and two things I want to pick on. One I want to pick on is, uh, most of us, when we are climbing, I will say this for myself at least, I love having a partner who understands me well. So let's say they're belaying me or watching me, they know just when. I'm struggling and I need just that extra boost.

You know, they can, they can say like, come on, or, you know, or Ali or, or, or, you know, one was depending on what part of the world you are. And I can just get an extra little bit of like wind

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: underneath me to push me through that hard move. But it seems like you had this some level of self belief or focus where perhaps, see, like you said, [00:36:00] You did not, did, do you think you, you liked that?

People encouraging?

Jerry: climbing, I didn't want nobody to say nothing. Nothing.

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: nothing. And I remember when, when I was in, uh, Yosemite, and I did a boulder problem there called the Dominator, there was always 10 or 15 people watching, I said, I don't want people watching, but please don't say anything when I'm climbing.

I don't want anybody to

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: because I'm in the middle of a

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: says something, ain't gonna pull harder, not gonna try harder, nothing's gonna, nothing they can say is gonna say to me is gonna make me pull harder, so I don't want to get put off. So I like to really keep it calm, have my own thoughts, it help me at all, so I didn't like people saying anything.

Kush: Sure. You know what, you know, the funny, what, what the worst is when sure, like I said, I like somebody just a little bit of like a subtle encouragement when I'm struggling,

Jerry: Yeah,

Kush: but like the funniest of the worst is, you know, like when I'm at a jog resting and somebody's screaming their heart out to try to get me [00:37:00] to go.

Jerry: yeah. Yeah,

Kush: to ask you was again, your performance on, um,

Jerry: yeah.

Kush: um, the focus and what you brought out on every single attempt. We spoke about Equinox, so let's just talk about that for a second. Um, there's a lot of backstory with this iconic route at Joshua Tree in the U. S. For for his time it was and it's kind of still is it's like a really nails kind of a Crack climb and like you said it had people have people would take people project that route like for days, right?

and somehow you freaking went out there, put your shoes on and you on sighted, did that route first try, like without knowing what the route was like, without any prior pre inspection, Jerry, you on sighted that route. [00:38:00] So talk to us a little bit about both the preparation and the focus. Wow,

Jerry: a guy called Randy Vogel who had written the guidebook for Joshua Tree. He came to England. I was 19. I'd not been to America yet. He'd never heard of me. said to him, what about this route, Equinox?

I really want to go to Joshua Tree and try Equinox. And he said to me, he was a good friend of Bakker's, he said, it. There's no way you're gonna do Equinox. I said, you'll cut your fingers to shreds. It took John Backer three days to top rope it. You've got no chance. That's what he said. So then I was like, hmm. really got to do this route. then, I think, it was not conceivable, not, I'd have been happy if I'd done it in two days. But then when I meant, went to Joshua Tree, I was there for three months. a very good friend of John Baca and I did a lot of climbing with John. He saw me climbing [00:39:00] and he was the one who gave me the, the idea to try and onsite it. Without him, I don't think I'd have tried to onsite it, but he said to me one day, you know what, I think you could onsite Equinox. So then I had it as a goal. to on site Equinox. So then I spent, oh, a month just training to do Equinox. There's some boulder problems there with finger jams, so I've been doing these boulder problems up and down and reversing them all on these finger jams. I was doing rope ladders, traversing, I was eating a fantastic diet. I don't think I've, all my life, I don't think I've ever peaked for a climb better than when I did grown ups. I was so, so fired up. I was so fired up. Um, it was before, uh, half friends were made. So the smallest size you could get was a number one. John Bacalempian, a half friend, so I had this one friend I could put in the crack. Uh, and I can remember leading it, um, I climbed up, reversed [00:40:00] down. Shook out, then I went up a little bit more, put some wires in, got to a little shake out. Um, I remember thinking, should I put the half friend there? I thought, no, I'll save it. And I was, I was so psyched and so fired up, I just ran it out, put one nut in, I just went, and I just went for it, ran it out. I reckon if they'd stacked another Equinox on top, I think I'd have done that as well. I didn't feel pumped and absolutely,

Kush: wow.

Jerry: absolutely cruised it. I pissed up it. I felt so good, but I was so psyched up and ready for it.

And so fit, I think I'd had two rest days before on my rest days. I was doing probably 10, you know, I was just climbing all day on easy route. So I'd do loads of fives, eights and fives, seven. So I was doing loads and loads of easy mileage. And then my training days, I was doing ladders, pull ups, deadhands, traversing, bouldering, crack climbing, so it, you know, back then, there, there wasn't [00:41:00] anywhere to train better, it was before climbing walls and, and anything like that, so I was really, really fired up for that route, and it was, you know, a, a big thing for me, and John was there, with his camera, he actually, he documented it and got some great photos, so. So it was a special day to go there with John Backer and, you know, have him take photos of you. It was really good and he was very generous, uh, to encourage me to do that. Ha, ha,

Kush: that one of those rare days you would break from tradition of, uh, you know, drinking tea and perhaps go to the local bar at Joshua Tree and, uh,

Jerry: ha.

Kush: grab some pints?

Jerry: No, I, I, I never drank alcohol. If I'd had money I would have, but we never, I never had the money. I never had the

Kush: Sure,

Jerry: or go to a restaurant or anything. We were on such a shoestring there was no, it was pre sponsorship, pre, pre sponsored climbing. We [00:42:00] absolutely lived on a shoestring. Uh, But yeah, I never drank alcohol then. If somebody gave me a beer I'd have had it, but I honestly remember never going to the shop and buying a can of beer. Because it was way too expensive. We didn't even, you wouldn't even, wouldn't even have a meal in a restaurant. You know, you might have a coffee, because it was free refills, uh, and that was pretty incredible. But that was about it.

Kush: sure. Absolutely. Yeah, no, so you put an incredible amount of really comprehensive preparation for this route. Like you saw the route, you were inspired, you talk to others. It like lit this fire in you and you put all this time in Joshua Tree, uh, preparing for it. 

When you went to the route, you were physically completely ready. At the same time, you also had the mental, uh, state to be able to [00:43:00] execute. And I think this is something that perhaps separates, let's say, you know, the very, very top climbers from the rest of us where, you know, we do all of the same things.

But then when we get to the climb itself, you know, we may choke, right? We may get either. we may either, you know, we, we, in that balance between let's say, um, focus versus expectation, we might like lose that, uh, lose that balance. And maybe that's also something that you talk about in your newer book, Mastermind, you know, the whole mental.

Jerry: yeah,

Kush: So talk to us, Jerry, a little bit about The mental side of your preparation where you would get to this route and you would do it and I would also love for you to maybe, uh, uh, compare, contrast, whatnot, with similar techniques that you've studied in other top climbers, such as, let's say Adam Ondra, [00:44:00] you know, master of on siding and, and flashing, like, what are these things that you guys have and what can the rest of us learn from them? 

Jerry: I think I went to Equinox, for one, John Bakker told me he thought I could unsight it. I've got somebody who says, I think you can unsight that. So I know it's possible because John Bakker's told me and he's done it. So then I can start to visualise it. And think of myself on sighting it because he thinks it and he thinks that he can do it.

So then I think it and then I would thought about it. So when I was at the bottom of the room, I truly believe that I could on site it. I didn't know whether I was or not, I knew that I was in the best shape of my life. I knew that I could. Had a good chance of doing it. So, I was I was confident. And that confidence was instilled into me by John Backer, And, myself talking about myself onsiting it with John Backer. [00:45:00] about it, and visualising it. So we talked about onsiting it. I visualised it, And it, it, it That, that instilled the confidence. So if you're trying to do something, uh, I would say the more you talk about, think about, and write about something doing, the more likely you are to actually, to actually on site it. And Ondra is no different from all the other climbers. He's, he's got it. He is a little bit different. He's got a really good, uh, attitude, um, Uh, about being confident and, just preparing things, you know, he's confident and he thinks about things in the right way. I mean, if you get to the bottom of the route and you've got any doubt and you think you're not going to do it, it's going to be a lot harder to do it. So you really want to be visualizing things, um, I would say not, the one thing I learned [00:46:00] from writing the book, you don't want to be optimistic, you want to be pessimistic. Yeah. You want to be pessimistic about everything you go to that route, because if you're optimistic, you're going to think to yourself, Oh, I don't really need to train about that.

I don't really need to think about that. the crux? Ah, it doesn't really matter. I'll probably just whambo. I'll probably just do it. You want to be pessimistic, so you want to go, Where's the crux? I've got to find out where that is. going to happen if that goes wrong? What happens if that goes wrong?

What happens if I get pumped there? are all the things that you need to think about prior to going to the root. Being that pessimistic can lead you to being optimistic when you get there. So when you stand at the bottom of the root, you know What happens if you get pumped? Well, my fitness is good and I can shake out anywhere, and nobody's better than me in the world at shaking out. What happens if I read the root wrong? Well, that's probably not going to happen, because [00:47:00] nobody reads poems better than me. What happens, um, Uh, if, uh, my foot pops and one of the moves, well, I, I know that my foot pops don't make any difference because I can remember that climb I did two weeks ago. My foot popped and I still did it. I know I can, I'm ready for it and I've thought about everything and I know what my, uh, how I'm going to deal with all those things. So I would say be pessimistic. Think about all the things that could go wrong. will you deal with those things going wrong when you're on an actual climb? So when you're at the bottom of that climb, you can go, I thought about everything that can go wrong, and I know that I can deal with every single one of them and still do the climb. That's, that's how you get to that position.

Kush: Got it. What I'm following is that you would document, let's say every doomsday scenario, like all the different, different things that could go [00:48:00] wrong as you were trying for that route and you would literally write it down. And then for each of those points, you would put into preparation.

Jerry: Yep.

Kush: On, on how, so I understand what you mean by the term pessimism and then when you would actually get to the bottom of the route, you would, um, you would know exactly.

what may happen and how you might get past it. And again, this is something that maybe in some way transcends all of life, you know, the power of being able to plan for different scenarios. It's such a, such a powerful lesson. Along with that, you also write about visualization and self belief, which I find so compelling.

Can you talk about how you developed [00:49:00] those techniques and how they were helpful to you?

Jerry: Well, I mean, visualizes stuff. I mean, it's, you visualize stuff from when you're, from when you're, almost from when you're born. I mean, it's like dreaming. You think about things. If you're thinking about something, you're visualizing it. You know, if I'm thinking about having my eggs for breakfast, I'm visualizing having my eggs for breakfast. So, Visualization becomes more useful when you're trying to do hard routes because you're trying to remember all the moves. Uh, so visualization is really key on that. Certainly when you're trying a very hard red point and you're unable to do it, it's very hard to visualize going through the crux. you have to visualize it, and I would say, One thing that I would do, I would say to people, if you're visualising something, your eyes, visualise [00:50:00] it, and then I would say, how do you see it? How do you see it? Is it black and white? it a long way away? Is it you climbing it? I'd say, try and make it, how do you see it? it into colour, turn it HD, make it really bright, make it a sunny day so it's really visual so it becomes more powerful. You want to see it in colour and you want to see it really in front of you and you want to turn the volume up. You want to hear volume. Turn the volume up to on HD, and what colour in it, because that will just make it a little bit more powerful. Um, you want to make it as real as possible, but if you've, if you've not visualised or thought about it, somebody said, when I learned that technique, I said, somebody said, but how are you visualising it?

I said, is it colour? I go, no, black and white. Have you, is there any noise? No, there's no noise. So I would say, you know, Turn it up, make it visual, make it colourful, put some noise [00:51:00] in there, and make it as real as possible when you're doing the visualisation. So that's a little technique that I've just, just learned recently, which I think will help people. But you could talk about there's so many techniques. Uh, I mean you could do a whole podcast talking about visualization and different techniques to When you've made mistakes how to get them better in different ways of doing things There's there's a lot of really incredible stuff. I've just been doing recently But it's too

Kush: Yeah,

Jerry: about it now

Kush: yeah. Yeah. No for sure. Maybe we can have you back on the podcast sometime and do a deep dive because I certainly think that This is one of those overlook skills. I I actually had a Uh, bouldering coach a few years ago. I was trying to get better at certain things and one of the simplest things he would ask me to do is every time before I started on a boulder problem, if I could visualize myself [00:52:00] doing all of the moves from the bottom to the top

Jerry: Yeah

Kush: and then again from top to the bottom and then realize that I did not Do that

Jerry: Yeah,

Kush: consistently.

So it's one of those things that I've, I'm still working on it and trying to drill down, uh, trying to drill down, uh, some of those things

Jerry: I

Kush: with.

Jerry: I just add to that doing color and then after you visualized it and you've seen the whole thing, you want a final thought. You want to have a final, one final thought going into the problem or the root or something. that was it. That's a concentration thing. So your conscious mind think about lots of different things. If it thinks about one thing, it's concentrating better. So the less things you're thinking about consciously, the more you're concentrating. So ideally you want to think about one thing. So if you've never climbed before, I tie you onto the rope, you're going to be thinking, Has he tied the knot properly?

Is it going to hurt when I [00:53:00] fall off? Am I going to look stupid? Where do I put my feet? If you've been climbing for 10 years, you're not going to think, has he tied the knot right? You're not going to think, is it going to hurt? You don't want to think, am I going to look stupid? You know where your feet are going to go. And as you get better and better You really, when you try something really hard, you really want to concentrate on one thing, and if you've not been giving it everything, or something, your final thought might be, right, focused aggression, be really aggressive on this route. That was nearly always my final thought. Focused aggression. be focused, focus and aggression, panicking, not rushing, but just really focused and aggressive. And for climbing, you need to be aggressive. So I'd say the visualization, do that. And then you want to find before, how are you going to do the climb? You can't through the climb, have a final thought.

I mean, it's too late. You have to make your mind up on the bottom before you pull on the rock. If it's, if you're scared of taking a fall on it and hurting yourself, [00:54:00] make your mind up before and say, I don't care what happens. I'm going for it no matter what. I am going to run it out to the next bolt. That is it. That's my decision on the ground. Tie the rope on and go. what I'm going to do. It's too late when you're half way up the climb. So if you think about where the problem is on the climb, what you're trying to do. Think about that and go, that's my final thought, that's my goal on this climb, on that third bolt where I've been struggling to get that hole properly with my right hand with three fingers and a crimp, that's what I'm going to do, that's my final thought, whatever happens, I don't give a, I don't care about anything else on the climb, when I get to that third bolt, I'm going to get that hole perfectly with three fingers, and the rest of the climb will take care of itself. aggression, third bolt, fingers, print that. So you want to have, you want to have one, one thought and go, that's it. Crime is an unconscious sport, so you'll, you'll do all the moves to get up there. But you just want to think [00:55:00] about that one thing. 

Kush: Um, that folks, the aggression is also so valid because again, something that can happen is you might go, yeah, you might go get to that three finger, you know, that, that, that, um, three finger crimp and something might happen, right? Like, I don't know, like there could be a bird that flies behind you, or maybe your foot might cut accidentally.

And what you're saying is like, is like, You gotta get it into the, into the mind state that no matter what happens, I am not giving up. Like I have to just keep, just keep trying

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: I cannot try anymore. One thing, Jerry, that again, I think you can, uh, quote us on is the ability to focus on one thing. And I think that is [00:56:00] such a.

Seems simple, but it's such a difficult skill. There is this thing that I love to. All this point two is that my ability to, uh, or my lack of ability to, to quieten the monkey mind, not just in climbing, but in other parts of my life, you know, again, because that focus is, is so vital. So any other techniques that, that you found to be helpful to you and others on being able to kind of build that muscle where, when, um, it really comes to it.

One can quieten the monkey mind and just focus on the task at hand.

Jerry: Um, it's, it's a tough one, really. I mean, for me, I think your conscious mind can only think about certain amount of things. So if it's thinking on one thing, [00:57:00] Which is positive and that final thought that's called the process goal. So if you're thinking about one thing, that's a process goal That's the most if that's the most concentrated you can be So you want to just think on that on the process goal and if you're thinking about that, very hard to think about the negative stuff as well.

So a lot of the techniques for all sort of mental stuff is, um, uh, picking a process goal, picking what is the one most important thing I have to do to get up that climb. if, if you buy yourself bouldering, some very good technique is just take this. Take yourself out into the third party, you yourself, think of a third party, and that third party's looking at you, what would that person say who's watching you? So imagine there's a coach there, imagine Madame Monbero, somebody like that's on the hill, jack off, somebody like that, and he's watching you, and thinks to himself, what would he say now? What would he say? [00:58:00] I he'd say, stop mucking around, make sure your foot sticks on that foothold, because he's propping every time. You know, all right, fair enough. That's my process goal. I'm going to make sure my foot sticks on that thing. So, um, that's a, that's a good way of doing it. Take yourself out of it. Imagine you've got a coach there looking at you. What would he say? And then think, right, that's, that's what I do, uh, as, as to techniques to quiet your mind, mind down.

I mean, they're, they're quite, I, I, I'm quite into meditation. I do. I meditate every day. Not, not that long. 10 or 20 minutes and I find it really helpful. Um, just it's 10 minutes of nothing. It's nothing. It's nothing that's gone before. It's nothing that's gone behind. It's just central. It's just all I do is concentrate on my breathing, my in breath and my out breath. I know I can't do 10 minutes without my mind wandering off to something [00:59:00] else, but there's no judgment. I just, I just back to breath, back to breath, back to breath. And that's, that's how I, that's the tried and tested, proven way of just getting up, emptying your mind. And I, I love it. So I've been doing that for a couple of months now and I'd like to think, I'd like to do it forever really.

It's a real beautiful time where we just. Relax your mind and if I'd have known when I was climbing I'd have a lot of meditation because it just takes everything out of it, blanks your mind out and just calms everything right down. and I, you know, wish I'd used it earlier. So I'm enjoying doing that.

That's one of the hobbies I have now is I've done a course

Kush: Sure, sure. Um, yeah, I love, I love that. I also started a breathwork and meditation practice a year ago

Jerry: Oh,

Kush: [01:00:00] and I'm still working. Yeah, I'm, I'm still working through it and there are days when I falter. And, uh, some days. I feel I have found that kind of whatever focus thing. And some days I feel that I really botched it.

But, uh, I think one of the goals of at least this practice that I'm doing is to not judge myself on how well or

Jerry: no judgment. You can't read it wrong because there's no judgment on it. You don't, you don't win a meditation. You just, you meditate. Sometimes your mind goes and it keeps wandering off. I find that it wanders off for the first few minutes and then towards the end of it, you can get more centralized and, and start to blank things out.

Yeah.

Kush: And, you know, they say that the more, let's say, your mind wants to wander, the more important it might be for that person to build that practice because that person probably needs it more than

Jerry: It's my, they say every

Kush: somebody else.[01:01:00] 

Jerry: It's

Kush: Yeah,

Jerry: you mind wanders because you know that your mind's wandering. So it's mindfulness, so it's not a,

Kush: that's a good point.

Jerry: you, you, you're aware that it's wandering, so, so you, you know,

Kush: Yeah,

Jerry: that's what they

Kush: yeah, yeah. That is, that is so true. Like just the fact that one can recognize that that one's mind has, has gone. Somewhere else is in itself like a little,

Jerry: That's,

Kush: I don't know, token, token of success that, you know, one is aware of that.

Jerry: its mindfulness because you, you're aware that you, your mind's wandering. Yeah. 

Kush: another thing that you speak of, Jerry, in your book is, let's say on clarity of mind. And you speak about this, um, this story where you did not do as well in a climbing comp because You had overheard, let's say, um, a limiting conversation,

Jerry: Yes.

Kush: you know, which [01:02:00] ledge, which, which maybe planted some seeds of doubt.

Jerry: Yes.

Kush: Right. Can you talk about what that was? And again, can you talk about like how we can maybe again, cultivate that place for ourselves where we focus on what's important. and, and shut off all other noises.

Jerry: That was in a climbing competition back then. the rules was, it wasn't how high you climbed, but it was how high you touched. now if you grab a hold, that's your high point. If you touch the hot, the blank wall above it, that's no high because there's no hold there. this was back in early climbing competitions and they just said the highest you touched. So what some people would do was climb up and when they felt they were going to fall. Off, they'd just jump up and slap the as high as they could and touch the wall. That, to me, was cheating, so I never did it. I never, ever did a climb competition [01:03:00] ever. Slat to get distance because I thought, well, that's not climbing. But I overheard these two climbers talking about how they, instead of doing the Travis and doing three moves, they went to the left. They didn't think they could do the Travis and then they just jumped up and slapped high. So they got distance and they're having this big argument and stuff. I remember hearing it.

And then I thought, why am I listening to this? Cause he's just making me thinking of jumping and I don't jump anyway. Then I got to the climb. I got pumped. It was, it was never near the Travis. That was the semi final, I was in the final. I got to the thing, and I was pumped. And I could see this hole above me, and I suddenly thought about that conversation, and I thought about jumping, I hesitated, and I went, Jump! I never jump. But that hesitation just stopped me, and I reached for the hole, I kind of stuck it for a millisecond, but didn't see it. And, um, was it. I was in a, there was two, two [01:04:00] joint leaders. they didn't have a, it was me and Jackie Godoff, we got to exactly the same place. If I could have stuck the hold out and won the competition, they didn't have another route, so we just had to do the climb again. I had about five minutes rest. I had no rest at all. Uh, Jackie was one of the earlier climbers. I think he'd had about a half an hour rest. And, uh, I, I just climbed up and I got pumped straight away because I hadn't rested. And he won the competition, but I'm sure I'm absolutely sure if I hadn't heard that conversation that I wouldn't have even, I wouldn't have even thought of slapping because it's because I never did anyway. So that was just an example of being very careful of what you're listening to, who you're talking to. You don't want to be around negative people. You want to be around good time people. Um, you don't want to be talking about, you know, well, you didn't do well there. You want to be encouraging people. You climb the ladder. great. You want to be around people who said, Oh, I really enjoyed that. You want to be around [01:05:00] positivity rather than negativity. Obvious. I guess that's obvious.

Kush: You know, it's, I think this is like one of those keystone principles of life in a way, where I go back and you know, we have our moms telling us to surround ourselves

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: with people, let's say, who are better than we are in some ways, or another way, another, uh, Another expression somebody's told me, I share, I, I, I, I keep with me, which I heard when I was a kid was, you know, you, you become the average of the four people , this is one of those, uh, keystone principles about surrounding ourselves with positivity. And perhaps, you know, what my mom told me when I was, you know, a little young one, which was surround yourself with people who are in many ways better than we are. People [01:06:00] who have qualities we aspire to.

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: And if just one practices that, that is, that reflects back and gives back in, in just everything that we do. So a note to self is, you know, don't be a peeping Tom or don't be a nosy Parker, you know, stay in your lane, stay, stay, stay where one's, uh, one's focuses and, uh, and let the rest. Actually the last, one of the last thing I'll talk about.

In this great book of yours is you talk about this concept of choking,

Jerry: Yeah.

Kush: right? Again, you know, you, you have planned for this big goal in life, right? It could be a climb, it could be, I don't know, it could be that time, you know, you are out, um, In the mentor wise, trying to catch that perfect barrel, right? You have everything lined up and then like, you know, a lot of us can choke sometimes.

And one funny [01:07:00] analogy I like to also think about is I grew up in a cricket loving country and you, I think you did as well to some degree. And we all will.

Jerry: Love it. I love cricket.

Kush: And, you know, we used to joke when we were a kid that the Indian team would lose so often that we would joke that, uh, the Indian team would often snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Yeah, you would, you know, they would be so close to winning and they would somehow stab themselves. So can you also talk about, um, how to prevent that?

Is there anything else you can share on, on how to carry that all the way to the end 

Jerry: When I wrote Mastermind, I did it with one of the best sports psychologists in the country, Lou Hardy. He did, he ran the Olympic. He was the head of an Olympic. Olympic psychology for 10 years in Britain. He actually did the English cricket [01:08:00] team. He coached them. I asked him,

Kush: Ah,

Jerry: you do to stop choking? And he said, nothing, nothing, nothing. There is nothing that you can do. You can't, it happens. And there is no formula for anybody to go. I'm never going to choke again. It just, it just happens. And I remember when I, I interviewed Chris Sharma and we were talking about, he, I've choked loads of times! I've choked loads of times! He proudly told me, everybody does it, it's something, it just, it just, it just happens. But there is no, that, that's him saying it, he goes, that's it, finish that one now. There's no, there is no formula for that. just, choking happens. Funny, I've got tickets to see India, I'm going to watch them this year when they come over to play England. I've got tickets

Kush: nice.

Jerry: I think I'm going to Hadley and Trent Bridge. I can't wait.

Kush: Oh [01:09:00] man. That sounds. Sounds special. I stopped following cricket as avidly when I moved to the States for college.

Jerry: the end there, isn't it?


Kush: ~Yeah, but some of my most fun times for sure, like, uh, you know, sitting in a crowd of 20 people, you know, in a small room.~

Jerry: ~drink. I was out drinking with Joe Root last week. How about that? ~

Kush: ~With whom?~

Jerry: ~Root? Joe Root,~

Kush: ~I don't know who Jorut is.~

Jerry: ~the captain~

Kush: ~I don't know.~

Jerry: ~He's the best ever. He's the best ever. He's the best ever British batsman. He's one of the top~

Kush: ~Oh, wow.~

Jerry: ~time. He was the captain of England, so he's still his, he's~

Kush: ~Uh,~

Jerry: ~batsman of all time.~

Kush: ~is he, is he a contemporary player, or is he from?~

Jerry: ~Yeah. Yeah,~

Kush: ~shoot. Okay. Okay. I'm going to get brick bats for being so out of date. Yeah,~

Jerry: ~or somebody like that. I'll let~

Kush: ~No, I, I unfortunately, uh, have strayed, strayed from my cricket, cricket roots.~

Jerry: ~let you off. Yeah.~

Kush: ~it. ~One other thing I want to talk about is finding balance. Okay, so I think you've touched on it in your writing. You've touched on about, uh, things such as between ambition and rest.

And then you've talked about, yeah, again, the balance between physical and mental. And then, You've also talked about how you accomplished so much in your climbing career that you wanted to balance that out with perhaps other things. So can you also maybe just share your philosophy on, on balance, on, on what it takes to create this all round balanced life?

Jerry: Uh, well, for me, I wanted to have a balanced life. I wanted to do [01:10:00] Oh, I wanted to do everything. I wanted to have a family. I wanted to be a climber. I felt I'd done that, but I wanted to move on and do other things. And when I was climbing, I was, because I'm an obsessive person, it wouldn't allow me to do anything else really. And I found it, I found it really hard for the first two years when I stopped climbing. Honestly, nearly every day I felt guilty because I wasn't climbing. And I felt I had this It's like an addiction. You think I should be training today. I'm thinking, well, no, I shouldn't. I've been doing that 42. I'm 45. I shouldn't be training but you have this This real thing.

It's in the back of your head again. You should be climbing. You should be doing that You should be doing that. Well, why should you? I wanted to do other things Um, so I really got into I played a lot of golf That was when I was climbing and then when I finished climbing I wanted to I've always loved surfing surfing is not it doesn't really work with climbing because you've got If you have a rest day from climbing and you [01:11:00] go surfing the next day, you're even more knackered than when you start climbing.

So you just tired out. So I really got into surfing and it's a very similar lifestyle to climbing, traveling all around the world. I went to lots of different places to surf. And, uh, I really enjoyed that, uh, for a long time. And then unfortunately I think it was about four years ago. I broke my neck in Lanzarote, uh, surfing on a beach break, not a very big wave.

It was a small, small Small wave, uh, quite hollow, very shallow, I took off, tried to, I was trying to tuck in into a tiny little barrel and I got stuck on the top of the wave, lifted up, drilled straight down head and broke my seventh vertebrae. So I've got two rods in my back with six screws holding it all together, and it was a pretty traumatic time, I spent quite a long time in hospital, big operation, neck brace, um, When the neck brace came off, [01:12:00] I couldn't I could walk, but I couldn't walk without a lot of pain. it took me a long time to just learn to walk again with my back and then a massive rehab. So that's, it was a pretty life changing thing really. So now I don't do, I don't do no serve, I don't do nothing dangerous. I don't even drive fast in the car. I'm just like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go on a push bike.

I'm that nervous about going back to hospital. So that was a big life changing thing. And, uh, I put it out. I'd still, I still would surf, but I, I just don't want to go back to hospital. And I was in a lot of pain. All I can remember is pain or had a lot of pain in my elbow from a compressed nerve. excruciating pain all in my left arm. And, uh, I was, the doctor said to my wife, your husband's very, very lucky he wasn't paralyzed. It was really close. was really close. And it shakes you up quite a bit. That was the end of my surfing

Kush: Gosh, [01:13:00] gosh, no, that sounds, that sounds positively insane, Jerry. I mean, awful, awful that happened, but also Also maybe somewhat fortunate that it didn't, um,

Jerry: Oh man, you're blessed.

Kush: it wasn't worse.

Jerry: blessed. I mean, you

Kush: Yeah.

Jerry: you never see yourself in a wheelchair when, in your whole life, you never think, oh, one day I could be paralysed, but it was a real reality for me that I was close to being paralysed, and it was a, emergency helicopter ride to a hospital for an operation and all that stuff,

Kush: Oh God.

Jerry: I was very lucky, and think about it now when I see people in a wheelchair, and I think, you know, that could have been me, it could have been me, so I was very lucky, really.

Kush: Well, it must've been a, a particularly shallow, um, sandbar.

Jerry: Yeah,

Kush: And I, you know, so I, I mostly surf or I've learned to surf around beach [01:14:00] breaks around San Francisco. The surf here can often be very rough and big and, um, it's kind of a pretty, uh, uh, temperamental and, uh, kind of a big open beach break. And I like to think that in some ways, yes, you could drown if you're very careless or you could get, I, I, and I always, you know, one is always getting pummeled, but I think that in some ways it is safer.

Jerry: Yes,

Kush: it is

Jerry: the

Kush: a beach break as compared to, compared to like in a sharp, you know, live coral jutting out or all of that stuff. But, you know, do you think that it is ironic, Jerry, in some ways that, you know, you did so much, let's say, like you said, dangerous climbing, right? And I don't know what was the worst that ever happened to you, but sounds like this was This accident from surfing, which a lot of people think, you know, surfing [01:15:00] is la dee da dee da is, is what,

Jerry: Oh

Kush: uh, caused.

Jerry: thing was it was the, shittiest little wave, the crappiest little beach. It was nothing. You know, I've surfed some really scary big reef breaks. I've had, what, five trips to Indo on boats. I've surfed all over. And some big scary stuff. This thing was just concentrating, small, shitty little beach, just so blasé about it, nothing, nothing waved a flag of light, you're going to get really hurt here, nothing, absolutely nothing. happen, don't they? And it was that, um, blasé, optimistic, nothing's going to go wrong here, you know, you know, when it, when it is dangerous, everything is alert going on. Ah, you know, all the little everything's, all the sensors are going, aren't they?

Kush: You know, You know what is funny is, I think there is also this little, [01:16:00] um, this little other like truth to situations which are objectively scary that we are well prepared for. So whether it's like, again, like a really, um, um, scary, hollow, shallow serve break, or it's a, it's a dangerous free solo, you know, one, Can often, one, yeah, one may not get injured there, but you know, people will fall and like, you know, break their ankles, legs or worse, decking 10 feet off the ground, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jerry: then breaking your wrist as you are walking back to the car. You know, it was, this thing was so irrelevant, so small, so nothing. It was, you know, was like falling backwards, putting your wetsuit boot.

Boots on him, smacking your head, knocking yourself out. He's as stupid as that really, it it is [01:17:00] pretty

Kush: sure, sure.

Jerry: when a lot of accidents happened,

Kush: one, one, uh, one, I just came to my mind. I thought I would ask you is in this podcast. We also celebrate people who have picked up and activities are a sport later in life and and excelled,

Jerry: Yep.

Kush: right? And you I think you didn't really start putting yourself fully into surfing until you were moving out of climbing.

But given the fact that you were trying to tuck into small barrels, sounds like you got kind of good at it.

Jerry: I,

Kush: Any, any secrets there?

Jerry: I let tell you, I wasn't very good at surfing. I got barrels. I could do top tennis cutbacks, and I could, you know, I had some really nice barrels in my life and that was special. But I, I would not profess to be a good surfer in any way, shape or form. You know, it took me. Uh, three or four years to get my first barrel, um, getting barrels bloody hard though. It's really hard. [01:18:00] but I surfed a lot. So older and I surfed a lot, a lot, a lot, I certainly

Kush: Sure.

Jerry: wouldn't, you wouldn't watch a lot. I was better than average, but if you're in India on a really good wave, you know, was normally with the best surfer and I was the worst.

So I surfed a lot with a guy who was the British champion and I was always with really good, good surface. So I always would be the best person out and I'd always be the worst one. But I associate myself with good people that had a lot of help and I loved it. And they

Kush: Yeah, it's

Jerry: the best surfer is the one who's enjoying it the most and I, and

Kush: true.

Jerry: it.

Kush: You know, I think it's also part of getting older that in some ways one can be more planned and almost strategic.

Jerry: yeah

Kush: I've had a lot of bad sessions because again, the surf, places where I surf, the surf is often very junky. But now I am also a bit more planned with my time and when I choose to go surf, which is [01:19:00] like, you know, like going on a boat trip offshore somewhere in Indo.

and finding this perfect, maybe emptier mechanical reef break, right? And then finding like the company of some experts to kind of, kind of encourage and, and, you know, call you into, into that wave. I think, I mean, again, like, yeah, if you get older, time is limited. You know, be smart how one, uh, approaches anything in life.

Um, one last thing I want to talk to you about, which I kind of forgot earlier, Jerry, is I saw the super cool video of you and Ben and, um, Adam Ondra and Magnus Whitbow, you know, like kind of like the old guard, old guard and, and, and, and the young, young bucks, you know, like this thing. And initially I was a little bit surprised that maybe I, maybe I didn't actually see you climbing much in that video.

And now it makes [01:20:00] sense that perhaps you were injured and you are now more careful about your climbing.

Jerry: It was, it was

Kush: But there was,

Jerry: so I'd just

Kush: yeah. Oh gosh. 

Towards the end of that video, we have you and you know, your group go out climbing. And I think there is that one scene where, I think Adam, you know, he sends, or maybe even flashes. One of your, uh, highlight ascents. Can you, can you speak to that, Jerry, what that moment was like and how

Jerry: of the

Kush: did it feel?

Jerry: of the last boulder problems I did called The Ace on, uh, on Stannage. a beautiful, very short one, two, three, four move boulder problem, five moves, um, beautiful piece. Right on the top of the plantation. So all the bouldering comes down below you.

So sits right on the [01:21:00] top of the hill. So you can see it from everywhere. It's just a beautiful boulder that stands out. Uh, it was my final hurrah really. One of the last hard problems I did up there, it was a project. I've been trying it the wrong way. And then I found the easiest sequence, but somebody told me about once I found that I did it relatively quickly. then Adam came over. It was a famous problem. And, uh, he had the idea to try and, uh, flash it. there's a boulder there, you can stand on that, you can feel the holes. You can touch all the holes before you pull on. Um, so he sat there and watched some other people trying it for about half an hour. then he was touching all the holes, feeling it, wondering which way he was going to try it. Uh, it was a beautiful day, there was a load of people on the cliff, there was loads of people down on the bottom. And there must have been 30 or so people, um In England, it's, it's different from a lot of countries. People will pretend not to watch, but they'll watch. Whereas if you go to other countries, everybody will [01:22:00] go, Hey man, can we watch? But they don't do that here. They, they watch and pretend they're not watching.

Kush: Right.

Jerry: was quite funny. Uh, and then he just pulled on, and it's a short problem, so you pull on and you do it in, you know, a split second. So he's on the bottom, he pulls on, sends it. Uh, it was fantastic to see, to see. And Adam's a lovely, lovely bloke. He's a really nice, modest. He's a good friend. He's a super nice guy. Uh, so it was great to watch him do that. I'm really happy for him. 


Kush: he accomplished this incredible boulder problem, you know, did it for his girl. And you were right there with him. supporting his ascent, maybe the same way John Backer supported you, you know, back in that day, back in those days on, on a Joshua tree. And I'm curious if you also have some perspective having observed him on what makes Adam that special [01:23:00] in climbing.

Jerry: It's just another generation. It's just another generation. just another generation of another special climber. You know, going back from, you know, they're all special, aren't they? Back from Joe Brown, Don Willans. You know, it's just another generation. In 20 years time there'll be somebody else and they'll go, What makes him special? And Adam will be there going,

God,

Kush: Yeah, sure, 

Jerry: special? You know, it's no different

from any 

Kush: sure.

Jerry: no different at all from any of the other athletes in Fedra, Tiger Woods, there's tons of special people out there, aren't there? What makes him special? Desire. 100 percent is desire. You've got to have the genetics, and then you've got to have desire.

You've got to have an unbelievable desire. Drive. that inner drive, if you don't have that, you're never going to, you're never going to get there. And it's got to be a little bit of a, you know, [01:24:00] a screw missing in your head or something like that to give you that drive. You know what I mean?

It's not a normal thing. It's not normal. You know, it's, it's not normal to have that drive. Something weird's happened in your life to make, to make you want to go that hard. So, one, you've got to have the, you know, listen to, you've got to have the drive, but the drive is the drive of the driver. Every single time you, you need that drive. 

Kush: It is some kind of freakish ability to have that desire and be able to channel it. But you're right about Adam again, I, I, I don't know him personally, but 

he also seems like such a balanced. nice person, like you said earlier. And sometimes I feel like it's such so amazing that we have these, um, beacons of a sport, you know, who are able to perform at that level, but then also be such, such great ambassadors.

Coming to the end of this conversation, Jerry, do you have [01:25:00] any insights or any, any last tips for listeners on how to stay ageless. 

Any perspective there?

Jerry: Well, the one thing, the one thing I'd say right at the end, and this is really important when I asked, and I knew the answer before I said it, I had all the top climbers, the question, what mindset you in when you climb at your best? How, what mindset, what mindset you in? And every single one of them had the same answer. And the answer was. I was having fun and enjoying it. So I would say the mindset you want to be in having fun and enjoying it. And you want to carry that through for your life. You want to try and have fun and enjoy it. And you might, you've just got to try and find ways to have fun and enjoy things. And if you do that, you'll perform well everything should flow a lot better. [01:26:00] So that's, that's, uh, and I knew that would be the answer because I knew that everybody said the same thing and everybody thought. I thought that they were saying something original, like, I actually was just having fun. They thought it was some special ingredient.

It's not. You've got to, you've got to, you've got to enjoy it. 

Kush: Yeah. I don't think this is like, like there's, I was not expecting like, like a silver bullet of an answer, but I think, I think it is who it comes from and how, It is delivered and also that certain bit of reinforcement that I think all of us need that when we do have self doubt, when we do hit maybe some plateaus, it is again, maybe going back to that earlier love because because like, yeah, climbing again, like it's not making progress. [01:27:00] Anybody that much richer. You might get to have a drink with England's best cricketer, but beyond that, you know, there isn't like, uh,

you know, a pot of gold, uh, 

Jerry: to have fun, you're not always going to have fun. No, I didn't always have fun. sometimes you can realise and say, this is not going well today. I'm not feeling good. I'm not enjoying it. Pack up, go home, forget it, come back the next day. Do you know what I mean? So it

doesn't always 

Kush: Hmm.

Jerry: I'm having fun today and doing great.

It just doesn't go like that. And realise it and go, sometimes you just gotta go, 

Kush: Hmm. 

Jerry: going right, pack in, go home, not gonna achieve anything. Easier said than done. But you're not gonna enjoy every day. But

that, that's your 

Kush: Hmm.

Jerry: and have fun.

Kush: You have accomplished so much in the world of climbing and, and may I say, even beyond. And, uh, you know, I had, I had, uh, Ben, uh, Moon on the podcast recently. And, uh, you know, your name came up, of course. And, uh, you know, Ben was, um, [01:28:00] you know, Ben was saying that, yeah, Jerry is just great. You know, he just, he's just good at everything he takes up 

Jerry: about that. 

Kush: and to the outside world.

Well, to the outside world, it seems that, you know, you have done well with so many things. Are there some things yourself that you wish you were better at?

Jerry: Uh, I would say I was good at climbing. And I'm okay out of the things. But of course, I've not been that great at other things, and I would say it's really hard to pick up other sports and be really good at them, uh, later in life. But I was a good climber. I'll leave it at that. 

Kush: Okay. All right.

Jerry: okay at other things, but nothing amazing.

Kush: It's been a treat having you on the podcast. 

Jerry: been

a 

Kush: Thank you so much for coming on, Jerry.

Jerry: I'm going for a beer

now.